Page 1 of 7 12345 ... Last

Thread: The swimming argument

The swimming argument

  1. #1

    The swimming argument

    (to Viktoria, our resident demigod moderator) Can you please make this in to a poll for me:

    Should Thief 4 allow swimming once again?

    1. Yes, Garrett can't suddenly forget how to swim this is absurd!
    2. Nay, it's too complicated for us.

    Honestly, how can there be any of you who want Garrett to unrealistically sink like the Titanic any time he gets his pinky in a rain puddle? Water has been a major part of the first two games. It's how we gained access to Bafford's manor for crying out loud!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,157
    Of course it's realistically absurd, but let's be honest, most of the uses of water in the original two games was to create tedious swimming puzzles, or exercises in pressing W. Neither of these is good design in my opinion. Removing swimming removed a lazy option for level designers. Swimming is only a good thing if the designers can be trusted not to abuse it.

    Also it's much harder to have the AIs respond adequately to water, as observed in Dark Project, Metal Age, and countless other games.

    The only really fun use of water was the cool swimming puzzle in the Maw of Chaos. But that was less realistic than Garrett's sudden water allergy :P

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    Not to forget the Lost City, Haunted Cathedral, Framed and most importantly, the Maw of Chaos, boy was that freaky water cool in that mission.

  4. #4
    Yes, bring back swimming.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,157
    Framed! and Lord Bafford's Manor are actually the examples I would use to illustrate how badly water can be abused.

    Maw of Chaos and Precious Cargo are the only missions where water was reasonable used, although the latter was occasionally substandard too.

  6. #6
    I think swimming can be a good tool in level design. It served well in TDP and MA, and DS felt a little flat.
    -Infinity

  7. #7
    I wasn't even aware this was an argument. I just assumed the lack of swiiming in T3 was due to engine limitations.

    You have to have swimming. You can't have badass infiltrations through the sewers without swimming, and you can't have badass Thief without badass sewer infiltrations!

  8. #8
    Heck yes Garrett should be able to swim. Adds more to a level when there's parts you can swim in.

  9. #9
    I wasn't even aware this was an argument. I just assumed the lack of swiiming in T3 was due to engine limitations.

    You have to have swimming. You can't have badass infiltrations through the sewers without swimming, and you can't have badass Thief without badass sewer infiltrations!
    Yup. Deadly Shadows' development was beset by technical woes. Among other things they really struggled getting the physics to work - which killed off water and rope arrows. It wasn't a deliberate design choice. Saying water makes for bad game design is about coherent as saying terra-firmer makes for bad game design. It's really up to Eidos Montreal to use water and land in smart ways, implement them well and hopefully delight us with the results.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by DarthEnder
    You can't have badass infiltrations through the sewers without swimming, and you can't have badass Thief without badass sewer infiltrations!
    Though I wouldn't reccomend using the sewer given what they're used for... Regardless of how dark it is, the guard would still be able to smell what you've been swimming in... Uh oh... Now people are gonna start talking about having a smell meter in game. I suppose it adds another use for a water arrow

  11. #11
    It would be good if they have water at spots where you need to swim to get away or get somewere, or a place when som very special enemies like assassins are chasing you and you leap of a roof and dive in to the city river after a long chase.

    It wouldnt be good if you just can jump into the river at a misson whenever a guard gets close to you. Dont have it like a hiding spot. This depends just on the map makers/map designers.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    3,412
    I'm aware that swimming came down to technical limitations (As did rope arrows, most likely), but it is still baffleing from a story aspect that Garrett suddenly forgot how to swim. Who knows, maybe all those times I punished him for missing a jump by throwing him off a ledge in "Life of the Party" actually took a real toll on his memory in Thief 2....

  13. #13
    And for our next poll-- The walking argument! Should Thief IV let Garrett walk?

  14. #14
    I'm strongly against letting Garrett walk. He should only creep and run.

  15. #15
    Garrett should be able to swim, as the first level in Thief 1 had you go down a well to break into Bafford Manor. He's a master thief and sometimes aquatic entrances might be the best option.
    The Many: What is a drop of rain, compared to the storm? What is a thought, compared to the mind? Our unity is full of wonder which your tiny individualism cannot even conceive

  16. #16
    in t3 garretts body couldn't float, and the water didn't have any volume anyway, just a surface with a water texture on the top surface, and under the water surface a instant kill zone.
    Tuna, the chicken of the sea.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Belboz
    in t3 garretts body couldn't float, and the water didn't have any volume anyway, just a surface with a water texture on the top surface, and under the water surface a instant kill zone.
    Right, we don't want that. That's the easy way out for developers to avoid programming a swimming mode ( See Assassin's Creed )

    Since thief is about using the environment to outsmart the enemy, water should be an option
    The Many: What is a drop of rain, compared to the storm? What is a thought, compared to the mind? Our unity is full of wonder which your tiny individualism cannot even conceive

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The highest ground...
    Posts
    23,047
    Originally Posted by Myth
    (to Viktoria, our resident demigod moderator) Can you please make this in to a poll for me
    I cannot, sorry.
    Only the OP can create a poll and it must be done within a certain time limit - ten minutes, in fact.
    signature image
    You are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this...

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,448
    Doesn't matter. Everybody here wants Thief 4 to have "more". So swimming is essentially a must-have.
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,157
    Just as long as more doesn't mean more tedious swimming puzzles / W-pressing exercises / freebie guard evasion techniques.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by GmanPro
    Doesn't matter. Everybody here wants Thief 4 to have "more". So swimming is essentially a must-have.
    Well, don't get hasty. I do want to see swimming, as well(convenient way of getting rid of guards, too), but like the first few guys in here, I'd rather it be implemented well(tee-hee) or not at all. I wouldn't say underwater puzzles are the answer - that'd probably drive me nuts.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,493
    Yes swimming and creepy sewers that drip.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,448
    Originally Posted by WVI
    I'd rather it be implemented well(tee-hee) or not at all.
    Lol. I get it
    Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

  24. #24
    Swimming, for sure! No matter how poorly implemented, but that is no invitation to slack! Water just adds more depth and capabilities to level design and the sense of exploration and freedom. Not being able to swim in TDS gives me the same vibe as games that don't let you jump. Such restrictions have no place in gaming in the 21st century..

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The highest ground...
    Posts
    23,047
    Originally Posted by Gillie
    Yes swimming and creepy sewers that drip.
    *sigh* .... such sweet memories.
    signature image
    You are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this...

Page 1 of 7 12345 ... Last