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Thread: The swimming argument

The swimming argument

  1. #26
    Mr Bane up there puts it bluntly

    Don't let the engine limit you! It's unrealistic and annoying as hell to fall into water and instantly die, like hitting lava.

    And like some people said above, water was a major part of TDS and TMA and we should be able to swim it, walk around in it, scuba dive in it and so forth. That was in fact one of my preferred pastimes in Thief, hehe.

  2. #27
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    Luckily, in this case the engine doesn't limit anything. Swimming is already implemented. http://tomb.raider-underworld.com/to...1_Path_Avalon/

  3. #28
    I say yes.

    Taking away the ability to swim to me felt like they were taking away potential ways to sneak into a building/manor/what have you.

  4. #29
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    Maybe by Deadly Shadows people started realising that having a big hole in your basement leading to an underground stream, and then declining to guard it in any sensible way, was a small security hazard

  5. #30
    I thought water was well implemented. There's no reason that you couldn't get into some lord's manor using the sewers. There's no reason to assume that the guards would notice the smell if they don't notice the wet footprints traipsing through the halls. I also didn't have so much of an issue with the "freebie" guard evasion that it gave you, especially when the sewers deposit you several streets away from where you were, and you have to do more work to get back to where you were. This was often sufficient to keep me from diving into canals. Especially when guards patrolled the shores at all the locations where you could climb out.

    Swimming.... Puzzles? Where were those? I understand in the Maw... but I don't think that's a pretty basic puzzle. My point is, the water never really posed much of a puzzle, so I didn't get irritated with it. (But let me know if there's another one I'm missing. I'd want to try it!!!)

    My main problem with the lack of swimming in TDS was that Garrett suddenly developed a very specific amnesia in the watersports department. If you have your character swimming in the first couple of games, he CANNOT forget how in the next installment! I mean, he lost an eye, not a leg!
    Comes a man, less one eye, to carry me again...

  6. #31
    Maybe swimming was taken out, because it didn't fit their philosophie of level design, or because the small levels due the limitation of the engine used in T3.

    I say bring back swimming. Why take away one of the most basic gameplay features which is mandatory in almost every game.

  7. #32
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    Swimming and water could be fun. In the most realistically implemented version possible, please.

    I imagine that getting soaked would make you louder when coming up (water dripping off you), squish squish. And leaving water all over the floors where you traverse. Maybe even a slight chance of slipping when jumping?

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by VIKTORIA
    *sigh* .... such sweet memories.
    The swimming was always good. The fun with sewers coming out in so many different area's
    Think I have been playing too many fan missions. Like Drk's

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    And for our next poll-- The walking argument! Should Thief IV let Garrett walk?
    Exactly. I feel most polls are being done, though, to try and help bring visibility to things that were tossed aside or wrong in TDS.

  10. #35
    Originally Posted by Espion
    Though I wouldn't reccomend using the sewer given what they're used for... Regardless of how dark it is, the guard would still be able to smell what you've been swimming in... Uh oh... Now people are gonna start talking about having a smell meter in game. I suppose it adds another use for a water arrow
    Well, no smell meters necessary... but I remember some guards very rarely commenting on how stinky it was when Garrett was close by. In retrospect, I dont know if it was a sewer level and they were just commenting on the level, or if it was Garrett they were supposedly smelling. I always took it as though it was an unkempt Garrett they were smelling. I loved that. Made me feel more a part of the world. I also liked that the comment wasn't over-usedand the guards didnt find it necessary to investigate the smell-

  11. Originally Posted by WVI
    I'd rather it be implemented well(tee-hee) or not at all. I wouldn't say underwater puzzles are the answer - that'd probably drive me nuts.
    Me too. Make swimming interesting and fun... Just like lockpicking and everything else. Don't bore the player - immerse him as much as you can... That's what I want to see.

  12. #37
    Yeah! They HAVE to return to the swimming water!! The swimming are charged of fashion, and it will be certainly something that the game requires (try to imagine to assault a castle, without passing observed, you can swim through the defense canal).
    Free Fall: S = ½a * t²

  13. #38
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    Originally Posted by VIKTORIA
    *sigh* .... such sweet memories.
    Some of my best experiences in T1/T2 involved the element of water. Not being able to swim and not having water integrated into the level design is similar in effect to not having rope arrows. Not having either inevitably stunts the dimension of control and freedom that is so intrinsic to the THIEF experience. It's sad that this even needs to be disscused. Ahhhhh.....the enchantment of water.

  14. #39
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    Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    And for our next poll-- The walking argument! Should Thief IV let Garrett walk?
    Exactly.

  15. #40
    They should make water optional.

  16. #41
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    Originally Posted by jay pettitt
    They should make water optional.
    Yes, we have to consider the hydrophobic fans too.

  17. #42
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    Originally Posted by jay pettitt
    They should make water optional.
    Next they'll want to make land optional...

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by jermi
    Luckily, in this case the engine doesn't limit anything. Swimming is already implemented. http://tomb.raider-underworld.com/to...1_Path_Avalon/
    Hello to everyone, most of you don't know me, so I present myself. I'm a Thief - Deadly Shadows Fan Mission designer, I worked for some modding and many enhancing of the game, included rope arrows and swimming.

    Most of you know that the engine of TDS were that one of Unreal 2003. In that engine it were implemented the physics with gravity and system fogging, so you can have different level of fog and grtavity depending on what hall you are. But... WARNING!!! Both GRAVITY and FOG in the physic property of the volumes were DISABLED on TDS!!!!!!!!!! Yes, you've understood correctly: they had DISABLED the gravity and fog in the physic property (this don't mean anyway that we don't have a level fog, level is different from hall to hall).

    So the engine is not the matter. If Eidos Montreal will do the same error of Ion Storm, that is deactivating some engine property for some dumb reason (such as make it run on [phahh] X-Box....), then we could not have the property we interest.

    So: WE HAVE TO INSIST HERE FOR HAVING THE SWIMMABLE WATERS!! Because is not guaranteed.

    More people will write here, more will be the possibilites that the swimmable water will be implemented.
    Free Fall: S = ½a * t²

  19. #44
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    I still await a good number of examples of effective use of water in the first two games. By "effective" I don't mean "lol, you can enter the building by pressing W for a while and maybe navigating a breath puzzle, isn't that cool?".

  20. #45
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    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Next they'll want to make land optional...
    Yes, we have to consider the terraphobic fans too.

  21. #46
    Originally Posted by Belboz
    in t3 garretts body couldn't float, and the water didn't have any volume anyway, just a surface with a water texture on the top surface, and under the water surface a instant kill zone.
    Yeah it was kind of wierd in TDS to fall into the water in Abigale and then die and then appear in the prison having to escape. This is the kind of continuity we could do without.

  22. #47
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    Originally Posted by CheesyCat
    Yeah it was kind of wierd in TDS to fall into the water in Abigale and then die and then appear in the prison having to escape. This is the kind of continuity we could do without.
    yeah that got me too, by the time I'd got to that mission I'd developed a marked aversion to water and nearly missed an entire playarea because I wasn't going to jump into water and commit suicide

    and the rowboat in the docks that you need to jump into, with the clunky movement system it is remarkably easy to miss the taffing boat and instantly die because you've touched the water

    swimming is incredibly useful if I'd had it in the docks i could have swum under the edge of the dock to avoid the guards, people drop stuff so there could have been loot down there and Gamall's hideout could have been made a lot harder to find

    bring back swimming

  23. #48
    garret SHOULD swim!
    Do you miss your eye, little man?I've seen many interesting things with it.
    One day, I might come looking for the other one!

  24. #49
    the engine t3 was made with just didn't support swimable water, it didn't support a lot of things, ion storm were obviously conned by someone to use a useless engine.
    Tuna, the chicken of the sea.

  25. #50
    >>They should make water optional

    Yeah, like maybe an easy/normal/hard/expert. Easy is no water anywhere. It’s a drought, and all the sewers are dry. Expert is water world, where the only way to get anywhere is swimming. The City is flooded! And you have to do all your missions with breath potions!

    >>I still await a good number of examples of effective use of water in the first two games. By "effective" I don't mean "lol, you can enter the building by pressing W for a while and maybe navigating a breath puzzle, isn't that cool?".

    How ‘bout the suggestion above ToMegaTherion? Seriously though, I’m not really sure just why you were so put out by water in TDP and TMA. In Tomb Raider, I got the sense that water was often just a puzzle mechanic. But Thief? I think most of the water areas (though not all) were fairly sensible in context. Take the canals in Escape; how did this fail your effectiveness criteria? How did Shipping/Receiving fail your criteria? I don’t really understand your contention.

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