Thread: DIALOGUE: Character & Game - Philosophy & Humour

DIALOGUE: Character & Game - Philosophy & Humour

  1. #51
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    I'm very consistent on this. For developing a game, knowing what is one's fantasy and what is the reality, and having a realistic concept of what it takes to bring the fantasy into reality, would bring a lot more strong ideas into actual existence. Dreams should not be hindered, but no one should be saying the work is simple, the cost is not a concern, resources are plentiful, deadlines don't exist or are only arbitrary, etc. Stating how wonderful it would be IF something could be made is entirely separate from saying there is no reason why not. Not qualifying the absolute possibility of something with what needs to be in place for that possibility, and diminishing the availability of all those necessities, is nonconstructive. Context is everything, but in the end, it's the realities that will rule the end product. Most dreams will be cast aside out of necessity, and this is normal. Resources, time, money, and minds are needed to build something without cutting anything away that is not excessive. I'm not trying to kill dreams, but there's a very strong presence of what is easier said than done, what is easy for one who is not doing the work under a deadline and a budget to say. Learn "why not?" and construct the dream in tangible form to sell it and/or to put it firmly into the consciousness, or let it just be a dream.

  2. #52
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I'm very consistent on this.

    That first sentence pulled in my full attention in a hurry. I don’t understand. Consistency is one of your many virtues. That shouldn’t be an issue.

    Anyway, I accept your earliest remark , that “It ain’t gonna happen."

    What is not thoroughly convincing to me is the idea that scripting and vocal transcripting is a budgetary problem by its nature. I’d be a hard sell on that one. It can be, but it’s not necessarily. There’s an old truism couched as a joke that the average income of a card-carrying (name any profession that has stars in its eyes) is less than the average income of a (What would the punch line be now? migrant worker, I guess). And that’s for a card-carrier. For every card-carrier, in some fields, there are ten thousand who don’t have the precious card. Well, look at this forum. People work here for the love of it; it’s a privilege.

    How many basketball players are there in New York City? In Indiana? Los Angeles county? Michael Jordan didn’t come out of nothing.

    That aside, and assuming 10,000 quips, could they be coordinated on a computer in budgetary terms? I’m at sea. I don’t know if it could be done yesterday or in a thousand years. My phantasms have huge waves hanging over my shoulder. There’s just a sound, an idea of something that makes me close my eyes and sleep well. To the point, I’d have to do some heavy review on my FORTRAN and BASIC before I could form an unhelpful opinion.

  3. #53
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    The consistency comment was about the fact few threads about new big development ideas don't have a reminder from me.


    All you have to do is imagine doing the work of the sound editor and the sound recorder, and realize every passing hour is money, and a brain can only sustain monotony for so long. More time in the booth with scripted lines someone wrote, and any ad-libbing will need to be translated to the other languages, and it's worse on the budget if they don't use those subtitles but have another set of translating and voice actors for all the lines again. And not only is the team writing the lines, but they have to make sure they are consistent with minimal continuity errors, so every time someone gets a brilliant idea, it needs to be discussed to some extent with the key people--and then someone has to clip each line apart, decide on which takes are worthy and which should be omitted or used for something else, label each file, run them all through appropriate filters, add them to schemas, assign various settings, included with subtitles, etc.

    Now that Stephen Russell is doing feature films--having done three already, which means he's probably got his SAG card--and then the fact that it's probably more costly to fly him from Cape Cod to Montreal in another country than it was to Boston over ten years ago (maybe not?), at least that covers Garrett (if it's Garrett, and SR is doing the voice), Benny, an elder Hammerite, and civilians. Any returning characters (not many, but Benny without his straight man will be odd) will be contracted out from the States and brought in over the border. The rest will be hired from the local theatres, be voiced by the devs themselves, or be celebrity voices (doubt that one). Maybe Square-Enix will also help with voice and translation services? Nothing fills up the discs and hard-drives like the sound files. It will be several Gigs already before trying to double or triple the random sounds. In Uncharted 2, are the AIs giving the constant feedback like the Thief AI? Also, you need to realize that not only will the random sounds have to be doubled and tripled, but the suggestions for having the AIs discover and react to more things means a whole new subset per voice. Every new use of sound requires a whole subset, and if you don't want repeats, each of those subsets must be substantial. Uncharted 2 had help form Sony, will EM have help like that?

    Here're fifteen possible reactions for a single condition, taken from TDS, guard1 only:

    Ha!
    Die!
    Feel that?
    Take this!
    Gotcha!
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]
    [effort grunt]



    Here's what the one schema from which those English subtitle and voice-actor scripts were extracted:
    Code:
    Version 7
    SoundSchema
    g1_catt
    streamtype 0
    volume 0,0 pitch 0,0
    radii 10,75
    pan 0,0
    randomstyle 0
    looptype 0
    finishstyle 0
    schemaloopdelay 0,0
    ainoisetype 0
    storage 3
    metasounds 15
    01
    02
    03
    04
    05
    06gr
    07gr
    08gr
    09gr
    10gr
    11gr
    12gr
    13gr
    14gr
    15gr
    tags 2
    +combataction:melee
    +voice:guard1
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/01
    lang_english 2004-01-15 22:22:38 "Ha!"
    lang_french 2004-02-19 16:44:06 "Ha !"
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "Ha!"
    lang_italian 2004-03-05 03:14:12 "Ha!"
    g1_catt1
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/02
    lang_english 2004-01-15 22:22:38 "Die!"
    lang_french 2004-02-19 16:44:06 "Meurs !"
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "Stirb!"
    lang_italian 2004-03-05 03:14:12 "Muori!"
    g1_catt2
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/03
    lang_english 2004-01-15 22:22:38 "Feel that?"
    lang_french 2004-04-26 15:24:05 "Ça fait mal ?"
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "Tut's weh?"
    lang_italian 2004-03-05 03:14:12 "Lo senti?"
    g1_catt3
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/04
    lang_english 2004-03-01 18:59:18 "Take this!"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 09:48:50 "Prends ça !"
    lang_german 2004-03-02 09:42:07 "Nimm das!"
    lang_italian 2004-03-05 03:14:12 "Prendi questo!"
    g1_catt4
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/05
    lang_english 2004-01-15 22:22:38 "Gotcha!"
    lang_french 2004-02-19 16:44:06 "Je t'ai eu !"
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "Hab ich dich!"
    lang_italian 2004-03-05 03:14:12 "Ti ho preso!"
    g1_catt5
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/06gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt6
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/07gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt7
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/08gr
    lang_english 2004-01-27 23:11:06 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt8
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/09gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt9
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/10gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt10
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/11gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt6
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/12gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt7
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/13gr
    lang_english 2004-01-27 23:11:06 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:46 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt8
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/14gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt9
    MetaSound
    g1_catt/15gr
    lang_english 2004-01-21 12:08:52 "[effort grunt]"
    lang_french 2004-03-02 07:43:38 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_german 2004-02-22 07:01:08 "[effort grunt] "
    lang_italian 2004-03-23 03:24:57 ""
    g1_catt10

    Any typos in the wrong spot will make it not work or cause errors, and if a decision is made to add or subtract or modify these responses, that has to be handled properly. Additional lines may need to be recorded, the existing files may need to be clipped or spliced, and so on. Nothing simple, and it all adds up. More work means more opportunity for mistakes--as long as they are amusing, it's okay:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXni_HD3Fuw


    A significant percentage of sounds are merely multiple edit versions of one longer clip, so even if the file isn't an exact repeat, it is a repeat, and the same sound will often be used in different categories. Copying and pasting, slicing and splicing, and tweaking of clips are signs of time and energy saving. All the Thief games have a lot of this, and I don't expect T4 to be much different.

  4. #54
    I thank you again. Your letters are always wonderfully informing.

  5. #55
    That looks like a heck of a lot of work for a few sentences. Now they have to repeat that process hundreds of times with even more complex sentences and get it perfectly correct. . .Wow that must be extremely time consuming.

    I suppose they also have to reach a balance between sound quality and the amount of sound clips they can add aswell. The higher the quality the more space the sound files take up. They also dont want to have thousands of different sounds that sound terrible. This makes the job a lot trickier aswell
    (Grumbles) Why do funny things always happen on my shift.

  6. #56
    At this point, would von Neumann have gotten out his pencil and gone "Vell, let me see", or not?

    Offhand, adjusting for my illiteracy and all that that entails [if possible!], Why are "Eng", etc, cached for individual moments? Why dump apples and oranges into the same barrel at the warehouse if you're going to sell them separately? They're not picked from the same tree.

  7. #57
    Would it be possible to use the sound files from the original games, and not recreate them every time?
    That might save some time and money.

  8. #58
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    If they had the original recordings, and they were in CD quality, yeah. I wonder if they'd have to pay everybody something for their reuse?

  9. #59
    Maybe, but they won't have to pay for sitting in front of a mike.
    I'd like to hear the original hammerite whistling/humming again.
    Remember when you were first time exploring the haunted mines? Then you suddenly heard the hammerites humming, and you knew that you had made it.
    The sounds in TDP and TMA were awesome.

  10. #60
    They were awesome indeed. Ive always related the Thief series with brilliant sound quality and Im sure this one shall be no different.

    I remember in TMA where you have to infiltrate the mechanist cathedril in order to hear the meeting between Karris and Sherrif Truart. I think that is one of the many good examples of excellent sound quality that We've always been exposed to in Thief games
    (Grumbles) Why do funny things always happen on my shift.

  11. #61
    I dont think we should think about "budget", "deadline", what possible or not possible to do for the devs. Why? you ask. Because we dont know what they can do. Leave that up to them. Some of you might know alot about what they have done and whats possible to do mostly in the programing and game-making world, but you dont know exactly what EM can do. So they ideas from this forum and takes critique and advice that we give them. Shouldnt we give them as much advice, critique and ideas as we possibly could do. Then they can use some things as a "must-have-in-the-game", some things they can use as inspiration. Its true that some other stuff that they see just a few people want, or just isnt possible to do. If there is such things they can just dont care about it and skip it.
    Just let EM do the sorting and planning and give them as much ideas as you can. I dont think its any fun to comment or say what I think when people says things that they actually dont know but instead says its not possible because they of habit think that they can predict what the game industry is possible to do.
    How can the games get better if we constantly deny new ideas that feels "over the top".
    So please lets just say something about our ideas that add something to it or say its not a good idea fot a Thief game instead of just saying that "its not possible" and directly reject the idea.

    This wasnt at all said to upset anyone or make someone feel pointed out or in any way make him/her feel bad. Oh how the internet makes our words look one-tracked, mute, obstinate, and stubborn.
    If you do feel indignant I really, deeply apologize.

  12. #62
    We don't want to distract the devs from what is most important for Thief IV; that it will be like Dark Engine. They have got enough work in that, we shouldn't distract them demanding something big. If you think that Dark Engine has a flaw that should really be fixed, tell it us. I don't know any.
    Any improvements are recommended only, and no major change shouldn't be made for Thief IV. We can think of them for Thief V when we already have working engine to start with.
    If the devs have time, they should make improvements that are on-topic in Thief. Like dynamic light and shadow, improved AI, limited climbing abilities for NPCs, swing-able rope arrows, more things NPC can do, and so on.

  13. #63
    It's not about "demanding" anything. It's just ideas.
    ^This is a part of the core design and a fundamental of Thief!

  14. #64
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    As I clarified earlier, it's thinking the highly-unlikely is simple and quite possible, which is false. I have nothing against dreaming up stuff, but to think it's as simple and possible as you do is what needs a reality-check.

  15. #65
    I'm just afraid that the ideas posted here distract the devs from what they should do.

  16. #66
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    Hopefully they are more professional than that and have a good idea of their own vision at this point.

  17. #67
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    ^
    Absolutely.
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    You are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this...

  18. #68
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiRrWJ6uaKU

    I like this one... He's so POOTCHY POOTCHY POOTCHY POO!! What a brilliant quotes... ^ ^

  19. #69
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    Wow, that did make me laugh XD

    The unexpected dialogue is one of the best parts of thief, by far.
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  20. #70

    Lightbulb Funny/Silly/Nostalgic Moments

    Forgive me if this has already been made into a thread (in which case this one can just be moved) since I'm not going to search through all the pages, but I think it'd be a good idea to post all the funny moments we've had playing the Thief games. Also a good place for just plain old nostalgia...that hasn't been used up on the other threads

    Let the games begin...

  21. #71
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    In Running Interference, hearing this comment for the first time and thinking the guard pacing in the dining room above was talking about me, since I just picked up a couple deer legs from in the kitchen and was near the dumbwaiter, but didn't yet know the voice was coming from the lift shaft: "Nuh, what is that smell? Smells like old meat." I didn't stick around to hear the rest of it, and only figured it out later. But since I played TMA first, I didn't know if AIs could smell me.
    In Shipping... and Receiving, leaping off a catwalk, quaffing a slow-fall potion, and descending with blackjack ready, and scoring my only awesome KO while Airborne on the patrolling archer outside Lord Porter's.
    In Framed, I still didn't know if AIs could smell or not when I swam through the drain pipes to get into Shoalsgate, and experienced having an AI walk right next to me in a narrow darkened corridor for the first time, while I was crouched and motionless. It was the first revelation that some AIs can actually bump into you and not notice, but up until the bump, my god, what exquisite tension!
    In Break from Cragscleft Prison, falling down the elevator shaft and being greeted by the huge spider.

    We'll see what else I remember...

  22. #72
    I can't really think of any moments in T1 or T2 at the moment, except for something making me jump or something. However, I remember I was at the end of TDS, when you are placing the sentients, when the funniest thing happened. I was at the docks placing the Paw (I think) and Gamall is walking around trying to keep you from doing so. Well, of course, she has all her glyph protection and what not, so she is invincible. Well, I was just messing around, shooting stuff at her for fun, and I threw an oil flask at her to see if anything would happen...and she somehow slipped, and fell into the water and died! I lol'd. I think I tried it again later and it still worked, hehe.

  23. #73
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    The first time I did the missions that start at the bell tower. I got to the part where to two opposing pairs of guards fight and sat back enjoying the show until there was only one left. I knocked an arrow and let loose to finish him off and then calmly looted both places.
    A bird in the hand is... Lunch tonight.

  24. #74
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    Originally Posted by Tryst
    The first time I did the missions that start at the bell tower. I got to the part where to two opposing pairs of guards fight and sat back enjoying the show until there was only one left. I knocked an arrow and let loose to finish him off and then calmly looted both places.
    Was about to mention this but you beat me to it.
    I also liked making pagans and hammers run into another in TDS.

    Oh, the joy of other people slaying each other
    Hello EM!
    *akward silence*

  25. #75
    I was always fond of releasing all the prisoners in Cragsleft and watching them run around for a bit to kill like one guard, and then after that stand around in the prison doing nothing. I guess escape wasn't on their minds.

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