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Thread: The Razielim

The Razielim

  1. #1

    The Razielim

    How about we move this discussion from the "initial thoughts" thread to the very first theory thread?

    So it seems that the Razielim will be one of the clans you can play as. It's an obvious choice, we all love Raziel, and who doesn't want to play a flying vampire? But it leaves questions.

    First off, the artwork and ingame models make them look vastly mutated, much like the vampires in the far future (Soul Reaver), yet the Turelim and what look like the Melchiahim look very human. So... why?

    Also there's their actual existence in question. In the events between Raziel's destruction and rebirth his entire clan had been wiped from Nosgoth "like excrement from a boot." We assume this is Kain's doing, and even Kain appears to admit to it in his own vague fashion. So it appears this wasn't done immediately though, like I had originally thought.

    Could the devolved look of the Razielim be Kain's initial punishment? The two are probably unrelated though.

    Go ahead and theorise with me on this.

  2. #2
    The clan members probably follow the deterioration and/or adaptations of the Lieutenant who spawned them (but more slowly as not to upset the order of things where it goes Kain > Lieutenant>every other vampire) and as Raziel had been tossed into what amounts to a vortex of acid, so too did the Razielim suffer. It is likely that the longer Raziel floated around in the abyss, the further and further his clan suffered. Killing them all off might have even been a mercy of sorts for them after a certain point. Kain might have refrained from being direct about killing them off (goodness knows he's not shy about murder, and I can't really see him being too fussed about genocide if it fit his purpose) maybe the state of decay they were in was so shameful, he didn't even want to mention it.

  3. #3
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    This has to be an alternate universe. Raziels clan was deleted.

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    Originally Posted by YourWaywardDestiny
    The clan members probably follow the deterioration and/or adaptations of the Lieutenant who spawned them (but more slowly as not to upset the order of things where it goes Kain > Lieutenant>every other vampire) and as Raziel had been tossed into what amounts to a vortex of acid, so too did the Razielim suffer. It is likely that the longer Raziel floated around in the abyss, the further and further his clan suffered. Killing them all off might have even been a mercy of sorts for them after a certain point. Kain might have refrained from being direct about killing them off (goodness knows he's not shy about murder, and I can't really see him being too fussed about genocide if it fit his purpose) maybe the state of decay they were in was so shameful, he didn't even want to mention it.
    Vortex of acid? I must of missed something.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Abolist
    This has to be an alternate universe. Raziels clan was deleted.
    We're never told when though.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Abolist
    Vortex of acid? I must of missed something.
    Ha ha, no, pretty sure you didn't. I was just equating Raziel being thrown into the Lake of the Dead with him being thrown into a lake of acid, considering the effect water has on vampires.

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    It's implied that the Razielim started a rebellion against Kain and the Dumahim after Raziel was betrayed.
    Though their appearance can be retconned through the following; the ones who fights for the Vampire clans are either loyal or finds no other option but to aid them, while the others have either been crushed, or gone rogue (aka vampire exile)

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Abolist
    Vortex of acid? I must of missed something.
    Did you watch the Soul Reaver intro cinematic by any chance? Maybe you should. Carefully.

    The action in this universe is pretty clearly set while Raziel is burning in the Abyss, after Kain tossed him but NOT before his rebirth. Vampires still retain most of their human form, as they did in the SR1 intro, so a lot of time couldn't have passed. I'd say it's 100 years max.

    As for Razielim: yet unexplained plot development. Kain didn't just go kill them the instant he came back from the destroyed bridge. Vampires are perhaps linked to their sire so they also degenerate as Raziel burns; understandable since they evolved along with Raziel, makes sense that they'd devolve (remember how in SR1 the Dumahim are the weakest clan while their leader lies unmoving, impaled on spikes).

    We know Kain killed the Razielim, but we don't know when, why or how, or what happened before he killed them. This leaves enough of a gap for the dev team to fill in. This matter shouldn't be of great concern.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Limed00d
    It's implied that the Razielim started a rebellion against Kain and the Dumahim after Raziel was betrayed.
    That sounds familiar, perhaps I vaguely remember it.

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    Ahh the Lake of the Dead Well now that I have Soul Reaver booted might as well play for awhile....

  11. #11
    Correct me if im wrong, im remembering a scene from Soul Reaver 1 Raziel seeing his clan destroyed instantly after his death-rebirth. He was giving some info about that, right? I dont know from where do i remember it but i remember it was a fast wipe.

    In that case, any chance to evolve?
    Last edited by Lovermanest; 25th Sep 2013 at 18:32.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Lovermanest
    Correct me if im wrong, im remembering a scene from Soul Reaver 1 Raziel seeing his clan destroyed instantly after his death. He was giving some info about that, right? I dont know from where do i remember it but i remember it was a fast wipe.

    In that case, any chance to evolve?
    Raziel didn't see anything instantly after his death. The period between his death and rebirth stretches for centuries at least. His clan was destroyed at some point in this time, but we're not explicitly told when.

  13. #13
    In the description say "The Sentinels are devolved descendants and represent the last remnants of the once-proud Clan Razielim". They suggest that most of the clan was eradicated and Sentinels are just vestiges of the remains of the Razielim.

    Regarding the appearance of Turelim and Dumahim, remember these clans are younger than the Razielim clan. But it would be cool see the Turelim with big ears xD

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    Originally Posted by Lovermanest
    Correct me if im wrong, im remembering a scene from Soul Reaver 1 Raziel seeing his clan destroyed instantly after his death. He was giving some info about that, right? I dont know from where do i remember it but i remember it was a fast wipe.

    In that case, any chance to evolve?
    It is true its in the beginning of Soul Reaver that he confronts Kain the first time. He then have the dialogue where he tells Kain that he had no right to do so.

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    The head dude said he was going to answer this on Monday. I'm going to be sooooooooooo pissed if the answer is "Well...ugh... some of them lived somehow."

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Rynfear
    The action in this universe is pretty clearly set while Raziel is burning in the Abyss, after Kain tossed him but NOT before his rebirth.
    Don't you mean "not after his rebirth"? I agree with what you're saying though. It would be stupid to assume they all just died out overnight.

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    Originally Posted by Abolist
    The head dude said he was going to answer this on Monday. I'm going to be sooooooooooo pissed if the answer is "Well...ugh... some of them lived somehow."
    Oh no! This is a series that lives from the LoK games they will need to have a better explanation than " they survived.....somehow!"

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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Don't you mean "not after his rebirth"? I agree with what you're saying though. It would be stupid to assume they all just died out overnight.
    It wasnt overnight. From the time Raziel was thrown into the abyss and to the point he walked Nosgoth 500 Years had gone by

  19. #19
    The impression that I'm getting and is somewhat disappointing to say the least, is they're smudging over certain plot-points and artistic/characterizations/obvious details in favor of fitting with their proposed vision. The same can be said a great deal for the Elder-Scrolls MMO for example, but I fear that Nosgoth is going to suffer on this account. I understand its meant to be different since its going to be a FTP game online, but still we know obviously what doesn't look/sit right with us, we're fans and if this game was still part of what it was meant to be with the new installment "Dead Sun"(that go canceled like "The Dark Prophecy") then maybe it wouldn't feel like its a bit shoe-horned in.

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    Originally Posted by ScionOfBalance
    The impression that I'm getting and is somewhat disappointing to say the least, is they're smudging over certain plot-points and artistic/characterizations/obvious details in favor of fitting with their proposed vision. The same can be said a great deal for the Elder-Scrolls MMO for example, but I fear that Nosgoth is going to suffer on this account. I understand its meant to be different since its going to be a FTP game online, but still we know obviously what doesn't look/sit right with us, we're fans and if this game was still part of what it was meant to be with the new installment "Dead Sun"(that go canceled like "The Dark Prophecy") then maybe it wouldn't feel like its a bit shoe-horned in.
    Only time will tell I presume.
    Still hoping for a game that will tell the story of what happened after Defiance! =D

  21. #21
    Only time will tell I presume.
    Still hoping for a game that will tell the story of what happened after Defiance! =D

    That was the whole point of "The Dark Prophecy", and just like "Dead Sun", it was canceled under the reason that it wasn't going to meet ESTIMATED SALES EXPECTATIONS, sound familiar? This multiplayer game was mentioned to originally be the multiplayer component of "Dead Sun".
    Last edited by ScionOfBalance; 25th Sep 2013 at 19:19.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Don't you mean "not after his rebirth"? I agree with what you're saying though. It would be stupid to assume they all just died out overnight.
    That's true, I did mean not after his rebirth.

  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by ScionOfBalance
    That was the whole point of "The Dark Prophecy", and just like "Dead Sun", it was canceled under the reason that it wasn't going to meet ESTIMATED SALES EXPECTATIONS, sound familiar? This multiplayer game was mentioned to originally be the multiplayer component of "Dead Sun".
    Hopefully they change their minds now when they see the fanbase is still alive and kickin!

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    About this, there has always been opportunity and support from the original Soul Reaver team for the idea that the Razielim survived after Raziel's execution. It was first suggested by former series director Amy Hennig herself, after Soul Reaver 2's release:

    Originally Posted by Amy Hennig
    Q: Kain says he destoryed what he created. Did he destory Raziels clan, or did they die out like the ancients, being they are similiar?
    A: This is currently unrevealed.
    And by former series art director Daniel Cabuco in 2012:

    Originally Posted by DCab
    When I worked on Soul Reaver, I believed them all killed (with perhaps a survivor or two). If you look at the scheme, Raziel's clan was the most powerful and favored. The sudden loss of their leader, and favor with Kain meant that they were targets for destruction: The other clans would have gleefully torn them apart. Based on the original SR storyline, Kain couldn't risk any of them developing wings and showing that Kain's gifts were mutating and growing beyond the Master. Kain was always first with the gifts.. that's how he maintained power.
    By the time Defiance was made, I was wistfully thinking that perhaps a few of them survived, hiding throughout the realm. It's a sad thing though, because they would still be tainted and doomed to devolution. By the time Raziel saw them again, he probably wouldn't recognize them. Even if they did survive, I imagine Kain would have to put them down, perhaps activating the silenced cathedral so he could start over.. IF he went back to the original SR1 timeline.
    And how exactly did that exchange go in SR1 again – the game in which Kain spends every scene deliberately trolling Raziel to fuel his rage?

    Originally Posted by Raziel
    What have you done with my clan, degenerate? You have no right –
    Originally Posted by Kain
    What I have made, I can also destroy, child.
    No direct confession there.

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    Originally Posted by Aeviternity
    About this, there has always been opportunity and support from the original Soul Reaver team for the idea that the Razielim survived after Raziel's execution. It was first suggested by former series director Amy Hennig herself, after Soul Reaver 2's release:



    And by former series art director Daniel Cabuco in 2012:



    And how exactly did that exchange go in SR1 again – the game in which Kain spends every scene deliberately trolling Raziel to fuel his rage?





    No direct confession there.
    He didnt deny either =D

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