Thread: The Razielim

The Razielim

  1. #51
    Let's face it, the ancient vampires deserved it, starting a genocidal war with an enemy because they refuse to die....then banishing them to a hellish dimension.

  2. #52
    The Hylden Curse
    I don't think the Hylden just decided to mess with the vampires manhoods for no reason The Hylden curse was created out of pure hatred, but the curse was not just designed to make the ancient vampires suffer. By giving the vampires sterility they also ensured that no new vampire guardians could be born as pillar guardians, thus weakening the seal that held the Hylden imprisoned over time.

    The Razielim Clan
    When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

    Connection between clan leader and his minions
    Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.

  3. #53
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    Originally Posted by Markelim
    The Hylden Curse
    I don't think the Hylden just decided to mess with the vampires manhoods for no reason The Hylden curse was created out of pure hatred, but the curse was not just designed to make the ancient vampires suffer. By giving the vampires sterility they also ensured that no new vampire guardians could be born as pillar guardians, thus weakening the seal that held the Hylden imprisoned over time.

    The Razielim Clan
    When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

    Connection between clan leader and his minions
    Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.
    Awesome point!

    looking at you designers now >.>

    (click image to enlarge)

  4. #54
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    Originally Posted by Markelim

    The Razielim Clan
    When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.
    I agreed with Markelim, they look extremely devolve. Been one of the strongest vampiric clans they should have a more human like appearance.

  5. #55
    Originally Posted by Markelim
    The Hylden Curse
    I don't think the Hylden just decided to mess with the vampires manhoods for no reason The Hylden curse was created out of pure hatred, but the curse was not just designed to make the ancient vampires suffer. By giving the vampires sterility they also ensured that no new vampire guardians could be born as pillar guardians, thus weakening the seal that held the Hylden imprisoned over time.

    The Razielim Clan
    When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

    Connection between clan leader and his minions
    Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.
    I think the Hylden war was mainly religious. The Old God led the ancient vampires to war against the Hylden, which did not worship. The Hylden responded by devising a curse which cut the vampires off from their god (as told in Defiance). Sterility and immortality go hand-in-hand not because the Hylden didn't want the vampires to have sex or children. They didn't want the vampires' souls feeding the Wheel. Blood hunger was probably a side-effect, but it fits pretty nicely with having the vampires degenerate into predators. Perhaps the world the Hylden envisioned for vampires was Future Nosgoth itself: a barren wasteland, a time of fear, vampires falling apart with stagnation and decay.

    As for the Razielim, Melchiah's exact words are "Do you believe for a moment that our Lord would risk his empire upon an upstart inheritance?" I don't know what this means exactly, but it doesn't hint at a rebellion, just the possibility of it - or at least that's what Melchiah thinks about Kain's genocide.

    And lastly, the Dumahim are the weakest vampires in Nosgoth in Soul Reaver 1. Their leader is the only one which is not currently alive, Turel being gone for a presumably short period. Dumah however has been dead for centuries, and his "once proud brood [...], believing themselves invulnerable" have been "reduced to scavengers". If this doesn't hint at a connection between master and kindred, then I don't know what does.
    So it would indeed fit that Raziel's soul being tormented while his body rots away underwater would trigger his brood's decay just as Dumah's soul being tormented while his body hardens from centuries of stagnation would also devolve the Dumahim.

  6. #56
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    Originally Posted by LordNekronom
    Let's face it, the ancient vampires deserved it, starting a genocidal war with an enemy because they refuse to die....then banishing them to a hellish dimension.
    Not that the Hylden refused to die. They refused to believe in submition to the Wheel of Fate, and to believe in the Ancients' God -- the Elder God. They weren't immortal, that we can surmise. Once they were banished to the Demon Realm, that realm is said by the Hylden Lord to have "ensured [their] immortality." It wouldn't need to be ensured if they already were immortal.

    As has been stated above, this was all over religious beliefs. Probably other disagreements, as well, but that's the major catalyst, and why the curse was sterility. It was the most horrific thing to do to these true believers, separating them from their cycle of death and rebirth that they believed in, and essentially separating them from their God. It lead to many of the Ancients taking their own lives in a desperate act to be reunited with the EG and the wheel, so it served its function exactly as intended.

  7. #57
    Marklim is making some very interesting points here; Good stuff man!

    Originally Posted by Markelim
    The Razielim Clan
    When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.
    It seems to me we don't know enough about clan politics to know anything like that. For all we know Raziel had a second who took over after Raziel was executed. That might have been a major embaracement for the clan. But being Kain's first, the Razielim clan is probably the strongest clan. And why would Kain want to destroy part of his army and empire anyway? As long as they continue to serve Kain it's at least plausable Kain kept them around and that they only started getting clobbered after Kain disappeared.

    Originally Posted by Markelim
    Connection between clan leader and his minions
    Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.
    I don't think we know enough about devolution in LoK vampires to make such a claim. Consider elder Kain; he didn't devolve. So it's clearly not just a matter of: The older you get the more you devolve. Vorador didn't devolve either (though we don't know how old he is, he could be much older then the SR1 vamps). It could be something Kain did intentionally when he gave his offspring the dark gift, as a way of controlling them. Or maybe something he did wrong, or something he couldn't do. The vamps he made were made of Serafan that had been dead for over a millennium. I actually like this. It means there is probably something going on with this vampirisme thing that we haven't heard before. Sounds to me like we'll be getting an addition to our lore, which I'm all in favor of

  8. #58
    Originally Posted by Rynfear
    I think the Hylden war was mainly religious. The Old God led the ancient vampires to war against the Hylden, which did not worship. The Hylden responded by devising a curse which cut the vampires off from their god (as told in Defiance). Sterility and immortality go hand-in-hand not because the Hylden didn't want the vampires to have sex or children. They didn't want the vampires' souls feeding the Wheel. Blood hunger was probably a side-effect, but it fits pretty nicely with having the vampires degenerate into predators. Perhaps the world the Hylden envisioned for vampires was Future Nosgoth itself: a barren wasteland, a time of fear, vampires falling apart with stagnation and decay.

    As for the Razielim, Melchiah's exact words are "Do you believe for a moment that our Lord would risk his empire upon an upstart inheritance?" I don't know what this means exactly, but it doesn't hint at a rebellion, just the possibility of it - or at least that's what Melchiah thinks about Kain's genocide.

    And lastly, the Dumahim are the weakest vampires in Nosgoth in Soul Reaver 1. Their leader is the only one which is not currently alive, Turel being gone for a presumably short period. Dumah however has been dead for centuries, and his "once proud brood [...], believing themselves invulnerable" have been "reduced to scavengers". If this doesn't hint at a connection between master and kindred, then I don't know what does.
    So it would indeed fit that Raziel's soul being tormented while his body rots away underwater would trigger his brood's decay just as Dumah's soul being tormented while his body hardens from centuries of stagnation would also devolve the Dumahim.
    You bring up good points. Don't have much to add about the Hylden, it all sounds about right.

    Here's how I interpreted Melchiah's words. There was indeed a "possibility" for an uprising. The Razielim were the strongest kin around and their leader was brutally betrayed, they had the power and the motivation to go up against the other clans. But Kain didn't want to risk his empire so he struck them down before they could oppose him. It's all speculation, maybe the Razielim managed to fight back, maybe they submitted to Kain and got eradicated, we don't know. I'm simply saying that a rebellion "could" have happened. It would explain the plot-hole of why the Razielim are still around. It's a possible plot-development that the designers for this new game can and, IMO, should exploit.

    As for Dumah, he was technically never dead, just sustained in limbo. He even states that his time in limbo just made him stronger, this may very well just be boasting on his character's part, but not entirely impossible. I'm afraid your argument isn't enough to convince me. If two oranges rot at the same time you don't assume they have a spiritual connection, you assume they were born around the same time and went through the same life-cycle, that's an aweful comparison I apologize, but it explains how I see it. I think both our theories can work, but I personally will stick to my opinion that the kin devolve in similar ways, not because they share a symbiotic bond, but because they are born with the same blood and inherant weaknesses.

    Evill3unny also brings up good points I completely forgot, it is stated that the lieutenants recieved different proportions of Kain's dark gift. He may have done this on purpose to make Raziel into his strongest pawn and make sure they never got too strong. As for why Kain doesn't devolve, I think it has to be linked to the fact that he's the host of the heart of darkness while the others are only given a small amount of it's power, plus he's the balance guardian.

    Either way, no matter what the writers decide to go with, I think it would be a good idea to at least give the Razielim optional skins that you customize them with, one a bit more monstrous and one a little more human.
    Last edited by Markelim; 26th Sep 2013 at 23:42.

  9. #59
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    Another contribution to the inhuman appearance in all the clans is the fact that Kain ISN'T a born vampire. Kain was raised from the dead as a vampire which makes his vampiric blood already impure. The murals indicated that the true vampires were a winged race with blue skin and as evidenced by the difference in appearance between the two oldest remaining vampires(Vorador and Janos.) The dark gift being passed on from the lieutenants is just a form of inbreeding as they have a diminished version of the gift and what they pass on to their offsprings is even more diminished.

  10. #60
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    I keep noting this, but also Rahab shows he's evolving "before the master" in Kain when Raziel presents his wings in SR1's intro. You see his gill slits on the CGI model, so it would be most interesting to see how fishy the Razielim are at this point, heh.
    I don't think the concept art counts as canon. It would defeat everything stated in the Soul Reaver 1 intro and the basis (or what everyone in-game thought was the basis) for Kain's "execution" of Raziel. Otherwise, Rahab would have been the first one to "have the honor of surpassing [their] lord."

    Yes, the Dark Chronicle has a clear screenshot of Rahab in the intro and there are lines on his neck but notice he isn't scaly like the concept art.

  11. #61
    Originally Posted by LauraOrganaSolo
    I don't think the concept art counts as canon. It would defeat everything stated in the Soul Reaver 1 intro and the basis (or what everyone in-game thought was the basis) for Kain's "execution" of Raziel. Otherwise, Rahab would have been the first one to "have the honor of surpassing [their] lord."

    Yes, the Dark Chronicle has a clear screenshot of Rahab in the intro and there are lines on his neck but notice he isn't scaly like the concept art.
    Weren't those the same models that were used in the SR1 intro?

  12. #62
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    Yes, they were.

    DCab has explained that Kain did not equate Rahab's gills to supremacy over him.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  13. #63
    Originally Posted by Markelim
    Either way, no matter what the writers decide to go with, I think it would be a good idea to at least give the Razielim optional skins that you customize them with, one a bit more monstrous and one a little more human.
    The problem here is that giving them such vastly different appearances is a bit of a cop-out. Imo it should be one way or the other. Horribly disfigured with a plausible explanation (Degradation due to raziel) or more human being that raziel was only just tossed into the lake of souls and so they haven't begun to be so effected, or simply are strong enough to resist such devolution for a time.

    OT:
    At any rate, I can see them [Razielim] existing simply due to the variegates concerning their demise. Kain never said specifically when or how, and their potential rebellion also plays into the current state of things (The clans falling upon each other, humans getting time to rebuild and forcing them to join once again). Once the humans are put down (unless we are in yet another timeline :P) I imagine the Razielim will have served their purpose and will all be executed by order of Kain or slaughtered by the other clans now that their common enemy has disappeared, but the clans are still somewhat aligned in purpose.


    So my basic theory...

    *Past: the Razielem likely rebelled when Raziel was killed/banished, starting the conflict between the various clans, allowing humans to gain strength.

    *Present: The clans joined together to fight humans.

    *Future? Once the humans are dead, the clans (Still united) turn upon the Razielem, being the eldest and most powerful, to quickly defeat them.

  14. #64
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    I am afraid that it is some kind of link that razielim had with Raziel... because Raziel got wings, and his clan got it too as soon as him... so when he was thrown on the abyss, may the razielim suffered that too...

  15. #65
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    To the Razielim Raziel was the Master so it would only be natural to think that if Kain was the first to evolve and the "minions" where to follow shortly after the Razielim would soon follow Raziels example.
    But since the intro in Soul Reaver where Raziel presented his evolved form to the others I think he just had gotten them from the state of evolution that he just up from. So his Clan might not have gotten that far at the time.

    (click image to enlarge)

  16. #66
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    Originally Posted by MasterShuriko
    But since the intro in Soul Reaver where Raziel presented his evolved form to the others I think he just had gotten them from the state of evolution that he just up from. So his Clan might not have gotten that far at the time.
    this, and how it is shown that the Necromancy raised vampires all evolve at different rates and their traits are affected by A)Thier dark gift, and B)What is needed for survival. For all we know Kain can be in his fully evolved state due to how corrupt his version of vampirism is coupled with his corruption due to being the guardian of balance. But if all vampires follow one linear path of evolution no matter if they were raised or born then both Kain and Vorador would be similar to Janos in appearance. That's obviously not the case here. Their evolutionary paths could just be plain "genetics" working: Wings being the trait that appears in Raziel, Gills being the trait that appears in Rahab. All of Kains sons could have eachothers genetic traits but those traits don't necessarily have to show up in everyone. The fact remains that we don't know what Raziel's appearance would have been had he not been executed by Kain. It's not a concept many people like to accept and some people may want deeper explainations but just like in Melchiahs case some people just get the end of the genetics stick.

  17. #67
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    Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Razielim are devolved so much entirely because they are the oldest, most powerful clan, and Raziel was ALREADY devolving when he was tossed into the Lake of the Dead. He hadn't devolved much at that point, but it can easily be assumed the wings were the first sign of his degeneration. In a way, Kain saved him from suffering the ultimate fate of his brothers, who more or less all went insane. The Razielim would likewise have continued the degeneration that Raziel had started. If we assume the game is set 100-200 years AFTER Raziel's fall, that's MORE than enough time for the oldest clan to degeneration more than the others. But even with them being the most obvious, look at the other two clans shown. Both of them ALSO show signs of degeneration, just not to the same extreme degrees as the Razielim.

    The Turelim are monstrously huge compared to humans, with bulging muscles and clearly altered skin tones. While they don't have the deformed heads of future Turelim, is that REALLY all that less devolved in comparision to the Razielim? The Turelim never had a physical deformity aside from their ears (in fact, I think the only ones with obvious physical deformities at this point in time would logically be the Razielim and the Zephonim, and maybe the Melchahim if they're already decaying at this point).

    Based on all of this, I'd assume its simple logic for the Razielim to be like they are.

  18. #68
    Raziel was the first "born" of Kain's "sons" and as such, received the greatest portion of The Dark Gift. His was also the first clan, and thus it has been around a bit longer than the others. How much? We don't know.

    I do think that the Dumahim should be the tyrant class... I know this is the wrong thread for it... but it bugs me how their leader is basically The Hulk encased in Juggernaut armor... and they get to be the tiny assassin types?


    Back to the Razielim though... As the first clan, they would show the most signs of evolution/devolution. (I know, repeating myself a bit.) So, we now have the question of "Why are they alive?" To which, I have a simple answer.

    Raziel was Kain's right hand man, right? So he'd be the one that Kain sent off to do stuff. So, what if, after having him tossed into the abyss, he simply told his clan that he sent him off on a mission?

    Obviously such a lie wouldn't hold them for too long, but perhaps, it was just long enough for the human rebellion to start, and the clan to begin going just a bit crazy... Then, after the rebellion is over... The clan discovers the truth, and Kain, or one of the other (Or perhaps all of the other) lieutenants acting in his stead, slaughters the remaining Razielim.

  19. #69
    Originally Posted by Rynfear
    (remember how in SR1 the Dumahim are the weakest clan while their leader lies unmoving, impaled on spikes).
    Actually, Melchiah's vampire fledglings were the weakest. Dumah was third born, so his fledglings are third strongest. Mostly brutish and tough. Turel being second born was second strongest, and was granted the gift of telepathy and psychokinesis.

  20. #70
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    Originally Posted by Adran06
    Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Razielim are devolved so much entirely because they are the oldest, most powerful clan, and Raziel was ALREADY devolving when he was tossed into the Lake of the Dead. He hadn't devolved much at that point, but it can easily be assumed the wings were the first sign of his degeneration. In a way, Kain saved him from suffering the ultimate fate of his brothers, who more or less all went insane. The Razielim would likewise have continued the degeneration that Raziel had started. If we assume the game is set 100-200 years AFTER Raziel's fall, that's MORE than enough time for the oldest clan to degeneration more than the others. But even with them being the most obvious, look at the other two clans shown. Both of them ALSO show signs of degeneration, just not to the same extreme degrees as the Razielim.

    The Turelim are monstrously huge compared to humans, with bulging muscles and clearly altered skin tones. While they don't have the deformed heads of future Turelim, is that REALLY all that less devolved in comparision to the Razielim? The Turelim never had a physical deformity aside from their ears (in fact, I think the only ones with obvious physical deformities at this point in time would logically be the Razielim and the Zephonim, and maybe the Melchahim if they're already decaying at this point).

    Based on all of this, I'd assume its simple logic for the Razielim to be like they are.
    I really like what you have to say. I might prefer a slightly more humanoid Razielim, but it isn't unreasonable that they would be look so (d)evolved. Look at SR1; Raziel has wings. Raziel is the Least human looking of all the vampires. It makes sense that his clan would look the least human. I don't think the abyss would have anything to do with his descendants appearance. We weren't given details on how Raziel's clan was killed or who expressly did it. We know centuries passed before Raziel reawoke; that is not a plot hole. Raziel was the strongest, so it makes sense that it would take time and effort for his entire clan to be exterminated.

    Also, remember:
    1. Kain is not a blood-borne vampire like Vorador and his descendants. Mortanus created Kain with Magic and Janos' heart.
    -- Vorador, Circle-Era-Vampires, and Ancients are poor comparisons.
    2. Kain created vampires by reaching into the spectral realm and retrieving souls using Kain's own soul. SR1 states this.
    3. Raziel was the first of Kain's children and received the largest portion of Kain's gift Melchiah received the least.
    4. Raziel also was the first to have a physical mutation (evolution or devolution).

    It isn't reasonable to assume that the Lieutenants Personally made each vampire in their clan, so I would not assume that the events that happen to the sire will directly impact the sired vampire. As such, I wouldn't imagine that the waters of the Abyss would have any impact on his clan.

    Dumah's clan was reduced to scavengers because their clan was decimated by the humans. When your home is destroyed and you leader is killed, it tends to turn the people into refugees (look at the modern world...). Dumah's death didn't have any symbiotic effects, at least there was no direct evidence. Raziel's death would likely have a similar political effect. With 5 jealous clan leaders remaining, the formerly favored clan that lost it's leader would likely be the first to fall. In SR1, we saw that the Raziliem were wiped out, but there is no reason to assume that it happened over night. This game takes place between the execution and resurrection of Jesu..Raziel :P Nosgoth.com states that they are the last survivors.

    Also, remember that the vampires did not mirror their clan leaders. SR1 bosses look Really different from their clanlings and more humanoid.

  21. #71
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    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    It wouldn't need to be ensured if they already were immortal.

    What if by submitting to worship of the Elder God they had to lose their immortality and by being banished they ensured their immortality meaning that they kept it by being banished? That to me seems like a valid alternative interpretation to the wording.

  22. #72
    My theory is that, while the Hylden originally were not truly immortal, they did not die of age. (Pretty impossible to win a war against somethign that can't be killed if you can be.)

    In being banished, they seem to have lost (Or possibly voluntarily shed) their corporeal bodies in favor of the ability to possess others who are still on the normal plane of existence. Without a corporeal form, they cannot die at all (Until Raziel wakes up and starts eating souls) and are thus, truly immortal.

  23. #73
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    When they return to Nosgoth through the gate opened by Janos' blood, they are supposed to have returned in their original bodies, so they do have bodies over there. Prior to the gate being opened, the only way they could come back into Nosgoth was by sending their souls through to possess other beings, or dead corpses.

    Actually I was about to agree you could interpret the lines that way, Reidbynature, but then this official answer would suggest that the Hylden did age prior to banishment:

    Q: Why were the Hylden exempt from the wheel? The Seer and the Builder in Blood Omen 2 both appeared to have immortality. If so, is this what made them a threat to the Elder before being banished?
    A: Most of the history of the Hylden has not been revealed yet, but it will be eventually.

    The Seer is "an extremely powerful and mysterious Hylden." More of her story may appear in a future game. She *appears* to have escaped the binding.

    The Builder was exempted from aging because he was in the Eternal Prison - where the condemned could be punished for all time.
    So, otherwise, if he would have aged, then he and his race are not immortal.
    Last edited by The_Hylden; 30th Sep 2013 at 02:36.

  24. #74
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    Yeah. It seems the context of the use of aging in that answer does lean towards not immortal rather than immortal as a whole.

  25. #75
    I always thought that the war between Vampires and Hylden was started because the Hylden were trying to find a way to become immortal, and that didn't sit right with the Elder God, or something. Maybe my interpretation isn't really founded on anything, I just always thought the were probably doing something that majorly ticked off the EG, since the Ancients always seemed pretty religious minded.

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