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Thread: Deus Ex: Mankind Divided -Announcement/Gen Discussion - NEW: DXMD @ No1 UK Charts

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided -Announcement/Gen Discussion - NEW: DXMD @ No1 UK Charts

  1. #51
    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    Of course it's both. Like in every form of media, there are commercialized, mass-appealing titles, and there are more artistic, niche ones. Both can be good in their own way, but good luck longing for times when one becomes the other. It's never gonna happen.
    Do you remember a time, not too many years back, when Square, Enix and Eidos where not one and the same and certainly not consistent garbage producers? When the next big game wasn't utterly compromised in design vision? Back when popular rarely equaled bad, but good instead? Back when journalists weren't in the pockets of publishers but somewhat independent? When limiting mobile gaming was not the most appealing market with the highest returns? When consoles and PCs offered unique experiences and not every game had to be designed for both? It wasn't all golden back then, but I could have never imagined it would get this bad. Lol at companies like EA, it was started as one that wanted more creative freedom from Atari's oppressive ways. Look at it now.

    "Of course it's both."

    Not really. Even indie is often compromised. Looking at Kickstarter as well as the most popular indie games being gimmicky as or rehashed concepts with content stripped.

    "Both can be good in their own way"

    Both can be "Good for what it is", if we are lucky. Human Revolution was one such game.
    Last edited by CyberP; 23rd Apr 2015 at 08:38.

  2. #52
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    Originally Posted by CyberP
    That isn't good.
    It is for me... and I presume many others agree, seeing how popular preordering has become.
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  3. #53
    Originally Posted by Lady_Of_The_Vine
    It is for me... and I presume many others agree, seeing how popular preordering has become.
    Perhaps my point wasn't clear enough. You're not getting some special deal with pre-order exclusives. Back before pre-order incentives that content would just be in the game already by default, for everyone, as a secret unlock for instance (and also often not conflicting with the design too).
    It holds back the potential quality of a game, but of course most consumers don't see that and nor should they be expected to.

  4. #54
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    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Perhaps my point wasn't clear enough. You're not getting some special deal with pre-order exclusives.
    Of course. People already know this.
    Incentives/bonuses are not the reason people decide to preorder a game. They're going to buy it anyway because they are interested in playing it.
    By preordering, they enjoy a discounted price and a guaranteed copy... and anything else that is thrown into the mix.
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  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by Lady_Of_The_Vine
    By preordering, they enjoy a discounted price and a guaranteed copy... and anything else that is thrown into the mix.
    Same as if they waited until 6 months after release.

  6. #56
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    Of course. Though if people are interested in playing a new game, they don't wish to wait that long. I certainly don't.
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  7. #57
    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    There's nothing wrong with preordering if you were going to buy the game on launch anyway. And let's face it, 99% of the people here are getting MD on launch.
    Even if you were going to buy the game on day 1 (which you really shouldn't do unless you can make an informed decision) your preorder is keeping this bad practice alive. You gain almost nothing and at the same time manage to make things worse for the rest of us.



    Originally Posted by Lady_Of_The_Vine
    Incentives/bonuses are not the reason people decide to preorder a game. They're going to buy it anyway because they are interested in playing it.
    By preordering, they enjoy a discounted price and a guaranteed copy... and anything else that is thrown into the mix.
    Preorders served a purpose when everyone had to go to their local game store in order to get a copy and replacement copies could take weeks to arrive. Back then if you wanted to make sure you could play a game as soon as it came out you had to preorder, everything else is a gamble. Nowadays you can get a digital copy anytime you want and a normal copy will be available in a shop if you have to have a physical game.

    So why do I think you shouldn't preorder games? Well, the fact that companies are desperate to get you to preorder should be reason enough. Especially when it comes to the big names. None of them give even the tiniest amount of a hint of an idea of a crap about the gamer.

    Last year there were quite a few games released that were considered broken when they first came out. They either had game crippling bugs or just plain didn't work. It took many tries for most of them to be playable and some never really did get fixed. Hell, even the Director's Cut of HR was broken on release and still isn't fixed. By preordering you're saying that it doesn't matter how they deliver the game. You take away any incentive for a company NOT to cut corners. As long as the marketing department manages to crush any chance of an honest review they can get away with anything.

    This is the second thing that preorders have done. They've essentially killed demos and reviews. Lots of publishers now place embargoes on review sites. They prevent them from releasing reviews until games have already been launched for a day or so. Unless of course you're willing to give a game high marks. This makes any review immediately suspect. You're never quite sure if it has been bought with exclusivity or if they are generally enthusiastic. The marketing campaign is aimed towards avoiding specifics of gameplay and instead tries to woo you with eyecandy in the form of pre-rendered trailers and bullshots. It takes away your chance to be informed. You know how I feel about game journalism, so I'd still be suspect of them even without this shady . The industry is rotten to its core.

    Preordering and the stifling of the press also impacts the importance of word of mouth. The most powerful tool gamers have left to challenge crappy games. You've already bought the game. This makes you more or less immune to criticism of it and more likely to be favorable towards it. By making you pay money for something that you can't even evaluate yet they are making sure that you'll be less inclined to think negatively of their product. You'll pooh-pooh criticism and tout its virtue.

    What do you honestly get out preordering? At max a small discount. From what I could tell most games don't even offer a discount and I have rarely seen one above 10%. The preorder DLC is not something you gain. It is something they take away from everyone else. Most of the time the assets are already on the disc and are only freed by a code that you put in. Normally these goodies would have been available to everyone, but because they needed something to pass to those that preorder they have to take something away from all of us. No company will put extra resources in. They'd much rather restrict. The worst of it is that people do order for these goodies. If they didn't there'd be no reason to splinter this DLC over all the different shops. Remember how splintered the preorder stuff was for Batman: Arkham City or how Steam had tiered a campaign for Squeenix's Tombraider?

    I don't think that a small discount is worth it when it leads to carelessness by developers, further destruction of the gaming press, marginalizing word of mouth and ripping out assets for other gamers. Preorders kill the gamers importance for nothing.



    Originally Posted by FrankCSIS
    Massive preorders during early stages, followed by massive cancellations a few weeks before it goes gold. If it worked to destabilise Latin American countries...
    If gamers were even a hundredth as organized as it takes to pull that off the industry wouldn't be in the state it was in now.
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  8. #58
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Do you remember a time, not too many years back, when Square, Enix and Eidos where not one and the same and certainly not consistent garbage producers?
    How are they "consistent garbage producers" today? I don't play Tomb Rider or Hitman, but both recent titles were quite good, based on what I've heard. Nosgoth is excellent, Human Revolution was excellent. Thief was bad, but there gonna be some bad games. Consistent garbage? You're being unreasonably harsh.
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    When the next big game wasn't utterly compromised in design vision? Back when popular rarely equaled bad, but good instead?
    How do you know they're being utterly compromised? Some compromises are going to be made, people making games gotta earn a living. Companies have to make a profit, it's just reality. Look at how much crap is now on Steam greenlight, if you think that if there's no corporate pressures, everyone is gonna be a free artiste making game for the ages and thinking only about the design vision, think again.
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Back when journalists weren't in the pockets of publishers but somewhat independent?
    Agree with that, and that's why I don't rely on journalists to make decisions about buying games, and haven't for several years now.

    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Not really. Even indie is often compromised. Looking at Kickstarter as well as the most popular indie games being gimmicky as or rehashed concepts with content stripped.
    That's why the ultimate decision is yours and no one else's. 90% of everything is crap, be prudent.

  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    That's why the ultimate decision is yours and no one else's. 90% of everything is crap, be prudent.
    This.
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  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Irate_Iguana
    Even if you were going to buy the game on day 1 (which you really shouldn't do unless you can make an informed decision) your preorder is keeping this bad practice alive. You gain almost nothing and at the same time manage to make things worse for the rest of us.
    Of course I'm making informed decisions. I preorder 1 or 2 games a year tops, and so far, in many years I got burned only once, with XCOM Declassified. That was a blunder on my part, what can I say, I'm a big fan of XCOm series. Right now I have exactly one game on preorder, the Wild Hunt. After E3, maybe I'll think of preordering Rainbow Six Siege. And I definitely gain something by preordering the games I'm confident in: a price discount, a chance to preload (which is important to me with my Eastern European internet, because the modern titles might clock upwards of 50 gb, and that takes about two days to download). Not to mention I'm showing my trust in the products I like. If some other people can't hold on to their money to save their lives, or can't tell a game they would like from a turd, that's not exactly my problem.

  11. #61
    The business of preorders gets out of hand easily. But that's true for any industry where money is involved. Which, last I looked, was every industry.

    Being a discriminating consumer is key to life and happiness. Can you still be fooled? Yes, and you will be. But you can learn from your mistakes, making better choices next time.
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  12. #62
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    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    I don't play Tomb Rider or Hitman, but both recent titles were quite good, based on what I've heard.
    Bastardizations of earlier games in the series. Both were horrid and felt incredibly dumbed down.

    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    Nosgoth is excellent
    A complete bastardization of the Soul Reaver games.

    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    Human Revolution was excellent.
    It was a good game but a bad Deus Ex game.

    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    Thief was bad
    Understatement.

    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    Consistent garbage? You're being unreasonably harsh.
    Actually, for once he's only being marginally hyperbolic.

  13. #63
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    Edit: I didn't double post, this was moved from the news thread because...I don't really know why. But for context, JFD said some dumb in a video.

    Originally Posted by JFD
    Do I think I can bring something to the franchise? If the answer is no, then don't do it.
    So...what exactly did you bring to the franchise?

    Originally Posted by JFD
    Make it more shiny
    Wut?

    Originally Posted by JFD
    On the stealth part, I think we really have a lot of good foundations
    You do, do you?
    Last edited by Lady_Of_The_Vine; 23rd Apr 2015 at 23:08. Reason: Moved from news thread

  14. #64
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    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    .I don't really know why.
    You do.
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  15. #65
    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    Bastardizations of earlier games in the series. Both were horrid and felt incredibly dumbed down.
    Metacritic scores: Hitman (reviews 79, users 7.0), Tomb Raider (reviews 86, users 8.5). Steam reviews for Hitman are very positive; couldn't find them for Tomb Rider. That's two solid games at the very least, so pardon me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt here.
    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    A complete bastardization of the Soul Reaver games.
    I don't give a flying patootie about "bastardization" of (warning: a mild hyperbole) some 15-years old moldy antiquity. All I care about is if game is technically stable fun to play, and I have a blast playing Nosgoth.
    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    It was a good game but a bad Deus Ex game.
    See above.

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    Metacritic scores: Hitman (reviews 79, users 7.0), Tomb Raider (reviews 86, users 8.5). Steam reviews for Hitman are very positive; couldn't find them for Tomb Rider. That's two solid games at the very least, so pardon me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt here.
    The latest Hitman was . It was by far the poorest installment in the series and managed to ruin its defining feature. When a Hitman game is best played by donning a disguise and rolling from cover to cover you know you ed up. They managed to up the characters of 47 and Diana and make the universe it is placed in more dumb.

    Not that I like Metacritic anyway, but that is the lowest score for any Hitman game. Even lower than the incredibly punishing and ancient 1st installment and the retread that was Contracts.
    Rule 30: A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

  17. #67
    Oh dear, the guy goes and pulls out Metacritic Scores. At least use the averaged user scores and disregard the critics as the former are usually at best a little bit more accurate.

    Originally Posted by avengingTeabag
    15-years old moldy antiquity.
    You-know-who has morphed into his second form. Achtung!

    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    Actually, for once he's only being marginally hyperbolic.
    Shut it, Pie.
    Last edited by CyberP; 24th Apr 2015 at 14:07.

  18. #68
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    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    It was a good game but a bad Deus Ex game.
    Ah, there we are. I thought you really hated DXHR, to be honest.

    Same thing can be said for Tomb Raider, though. Saying it was horrid is exaggerating. It was a good game (even attracted new people to the franchise), made me play it for two or three times from start to finish, but it didn't feel like past TRs.

  19. #69
    Originally Posted by Irate_Iguana
    The latest Hitman was . It was by far the poorest installment in the series and managed to ruin its defining feature. When a Hitman game is best played by donning a disguise and rolling from cover to cover you know you ed up. They managed to up the characters of 47 and Diana and make the universe it is placed in more dumb.

    Not that I like Metacritic anyway, but that is the lowest score for any Hitman game. Even lower than the incredibly punishing and ancient 1st installment and the retread that was Contracts.
    Fine, so Hitman was less then stellar, still far cry from "consistent garbage".
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Oh dear, the guy goes and pulls out Metacritic Scores. At least use the averaged user scores and disregard the critics as the former are usually at best a little bit more accurate.

    You-know-who has morphed into his second form. Achtung!
    First, I'm not a guy, second I don't know what the hell you're on about, so calm your tits, okay?

  20. #70
    Stop defending garbage, Lady. My tits are perfectly calm. It was a silly joke that you weren't meant to get.

  21. #71
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Stop defending garbage, Lady.
    Make me

  22. #72
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    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Shut it, Pie.


    Originally Posted by IvanaKC
    Same thing can be said for Tomb Raider, though. Saying it was horrid is exaggerating.
    If it is called "Tomb Raider" then we have to judge it as a Tomb Raider game. It was a bad Tomb Raider game, therefore it was a bad game.

    Originally Posted by Avenging_Teabag
    First, I'm not a guy
    In which case I completely got wrong what "Teabag" was referring to

  23. #73
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    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    If it is called "Tomb Raider" then we have to judge it as a Tomb Raider game.
    Fact.

    It was a bad Tomb Raider game, therefore it was a bad game.
    Opinion.
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  24. #74
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    Originally Posted by 68_pie
    If it is called "Tomb Raider" then we have to judge it as a Tomb Raider game. It was a bad Tomb Raider game, therefore it was a bad game.
    A game being good/bad is a matter of taste. No deduction needed, end of story.

    Out of curiosity, did you play LAU trilogy? If you did, what do you think of those games?

  25. #75
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    Originally Posted by IvanaKC
    A game being good/bad is a matter of taste. No deduction needed, end of story.

    Out of curiosity, did you play LAU trilogy? If you did, what do you think of those games?
    I liked Legacy quite a bit although it had too much combat. Underworld had some great environments but it was a bit wonky. Something about Anniversary didn't click with me and I have never figured out why. Maybe just that it is a remake.

    2/1/3/L/4/U/A/C/TR/AoD

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