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Thread: Possible clue to sixth human class?

Possible clue to sixth human class?

  1. #1

    Possible clue to sixth human class?

    "Andris can see it in his mind as clearly as if he was actually airborne, looking down on the landscape from high above like those men of the wild who are said to be able to see through the eyes of their raptors."

    Could the mention of wild men who can see through the eyes of their hunting birds be a clue to the sixth human class?
    Possibly a Druid, Beastmaster, or some other similar thing?

  2. #2
    It would be interesting to see how they would approach that class. Would primary weapons be raptors? Example: Hunter has default crossbow but can buy siege bow and multi bow etc. Beast-master has default falcon but can buy eagle and raven etc.

  3. #3
    That is an interesting clue as to the sixth human class assuming it is true. Maybe they're inspired by Bane the Druid the former Guardian of the Pillar of Nature.

    http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bane.php
    My nosgoth referral link: http://bit.ly/1JPbc9B
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  4. #4
    Geese Master confirmed? Geese Master confirmed.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    Geese Master confirmed? Geese Master confirmed.
    YES.

  6. #6
    Really like the idea. Apologies but I haven't gone through all the related posts/discussions. Would it make sense to equip the beast master with an ensnaring web and a javelin to facilitate the beast's attacks? Or swap the Ensnaring we with a hound that'd bite and hold the vampire in place thus freeze it temporarily while the rest of the beastery takes advantage of the situation?
    Last edited by CyberGhost-323; 1st Apr 2015 at 07:44.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by CyberGhost-323
    Really like the idea. Apologies but I haven't gone through all the related posts/discussions. Would it make sense to equip the beast master with an ensnaring web and a javelin to facilitate the beast's attacks? Or swap the Ensnaring we with a hound that'd bite and hold the vampire in place thus freeze it temporarily while the rest of the beastery takes advantage of the situation?
    Sensible, sure. A good idea, maybe not. Freezing a vamp in place leaves it as little more than a target dummy for every enemy in the vicinity.

  8. #8
    You know, using dogs and hounds as weapons definitely has a lot of precedence in Nosgoth, too. They were running all over the place in Soul Reaver 2, and they were quite annoying...>m>

  9. #9
    I hate this forum for making me want things I never knew I wanted.

  10. #10
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs26-_TWcUE
    Makes me so Nostagic hmm talking so much about classes i wish we had a new LOK Game

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Khalith
    That is an interesting clue as to the sixth human class assuming it is true. Maybe they're inspired by Bane the Druid the former Guardian of the Pillar of Nature.

    http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bane.php
    My thought exactly...we have the Alchemist class as followers of Anacrothe ( legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Anarcrothe )
    So I think it's very likely these "men of the wild who are said to be able to see through the eyes of their raptors" are followers of Bane.

    Personally, i find it pleasing how they reference the blood omen pillar guardians

  12. #12
    Druid Stalker

    Weapon: Musket or Arbalest

    Abilities:
    1. Send out hawk that reveals location and highlights vampires in nearby area.
    2. Send out hound or wolf that attacks and bites down on the leg or arm of closest vampire which temporarily slows or halts vampire movement.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by NecroNuke9
    Druid Stalker

    Weapon: Musket or Arbalest

    Abilities:
    1. Send out hawk that reveals location and highlights vampires in nearby area.
    2. Send out hound or wolf that attacks and bites down on the leg or arm of closest vampire which temporarily slows or halts vampire movement.
    1. Don't think there should be an ability like this unless it's as completely useless as Echo Location is.
    2. Lesser summons type twin wolves/hounds would be fine but I again don't see the need to slow down the vampire, maybe an ability to remove wall climb like mauling the legs.

  14. #14
    Giving the ranged team a means of player location would be almost useless in pugs and way the hell too OP in premades.

  15. #15
    Maybe they make 6th class a Druid that can shape-shift into a Werewolf
    Just kidding

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by KaininitePriestess
    You know, using dogs and hounds as weapons definitely has a lot of precedence in Nosgoth, too. They were running all over the place in Soul Reaver 2, and they were quite annoying...>m>
    Soul Reaver 2 is in a time period far before Nosgoth's era though. Hounds and dogs are unlikely to have been bred and trained in the vampire-dominated hell that is the Nosgoth era. Would the recently-freed remains of humanity really have resources for that?

    The bird thing though...Neat. Probably shouldn't highlight/locate though. It being the 'weapon' of the class sounds fun.

    If they're going for working Bane into the lore (yes please!), maybe an ability to turn the ground in a given radius to scorching water (as Bane did in BO) or call up vines to constrict (or lash) and damage a target similar to the tentacles in Defiance (which were apparently created by a Nature guardian prior to Bane).

  17. #17
    As long as there are stray dogs to sneak up to a person's camp to try and steal a snack, there will be people who will realize that there are uses for those animals. ;D That's how we got dogs to begin with, and the ancient humans didn't have many resources to speak of. The wolves helped them get those resources.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Soul Reaver 2 is in a time period far before Nosgoth's era though. Hounds and dogs are unlikely to have been bred and trained in the vampire-dominated hell that is the Nosgoth era. Would the recently-freed remains of humanity really have resources for that?

    The bird thing though...Neat. Probably shouldn't highlight/locate though. It being the 'weapon' of the class sounds fun.
    Humans have trained dogs since ancient times, and i wouldn't think the vampires would focus on exterminating dogs or anything.
    I'm not saying having a class that uses dogs is a good idea...but to me there isn't anything that rules that out.

    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    If they're going for working Bane into the lore (yes please!), maybe an ability to turn the ground in a given radius to scorching water (as Bane did in BO) or call up vines to constrict (or lash) and damage a target similar to the tentacles in Defiance (which were apparently created by a Nature guardian prior to Bane).
    Technically Bane only dug the ground, it wasn't any sort of magic involved...it was a trap for Kain, they were expecting him after all:
    "So, the scourge of the Circle has arrived" ( http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bane.php )

    On the other hand the vine thing is quite interesting, but do you think it would be able for anyone to do?
    I always had the idea that this kind of power was thanks to being a pillar guardian. Although we have seen humans using magic before:
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Black_fire_mages
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/S...or_sorceresses
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Sarafan_inquisitors

  19. #19
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    Well the Guardians would be very gifted in the powers of their particular Pillar.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    Humans have trained dogs since ancient times, and i wouldn't think the vampires would focus on exterminating dogs or anything.
    I'm not saying having a class that uses dogs is a good idea...but to me there isn't anything that rules that out.



    Technically Bane only dug the ground, it wasn't any sort of magic involved...it was a trap for Kain, they were expecting him after all:
    "So, the scourge of the Circle has arrived" ( http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bane.php )

    On the other hand the vine thing is quite interesting, but do you think it would be able for anyone to do?
    I always had the idea that this kind of power was thanks to being a pillar guardian. Although we have seen humans using magic before:
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Black_fire_mages
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/S...or_sorceresses
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Sarafan_inquisitors

    He is never shown to dig, just sort of kneel and touch the ground for a time. I believe he was channeling his magic as the nature guardian to transform the earth into water. Otherwise...The big bad guardian of an integral aspect of the entire world...Just dug some holes. Really? (I also don't take that line as "We expected you at this very moment so we set a trap!" so much as "We knew someone was hunting the Circle and would find us eventually, and here he is!")

    And I do think it would be possible for 'anyone' to do that, albeit in a notably lesser form. Bear with me, I'll have to go into lore-speculation mode here:

    Recall that in Blood Omen, it is not the Guardian's death that restores their pillar but the return of their token. Stands to reason then that the magic of the Pillar's aspect is contained not in the Guardian but in the token, with the Guardians tasked to safekeep and wield the magic as necessary for Nosgoth's benefit.

    A reasonable system: If a Guardian got a little too big for his station, the Ancients simply confiscate the token and drain the magic back into the Pillar which triggers the selection of a new Guardian, at which point they re-imbue the token. And presumably for simplicity, the tokens are passed down alongside the Guardianship so every Nature guardian wore the headdress, every Time guardian wielded the hourglass, etcetera...

    Kain carries the tokens throughout Blood Omen but abandons them at some point. Granted that by that point, they are long rendered powerless, ordinary items...If some knowledgeable, enterprising magician sect discovered one, knew it for what it was, and became driven to figure out a (lesser, weaker) method for imbuing items with the Pillars' power for use in the war...

    Admittedly, that interpretation does open the question of what was Ariel's (and Kain's) token. I have considered that question and have an answer but it's not really relevant to the topic or your question.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    He is never shown to dig, just sort of kneel and touch the ground for a time. I believe he was channeling his magic as the nature guardian to transform the earth into water. Otherwise...The big bad guardian of an integral aspect of the entire world...Just dug some holes. Really? (I also don't take that line as "We expected you at this very moment so we set a trap!" so much as "We knew someone was hunting the Circle and would find us eventually, and here he is!")
    I'm not sure if this is considered official, but both the wiki, and dark chronicle considered that Bane "stripped/dug pieces of the ground/earth":
    http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bane.php
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Bane

    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Recall that in Blood Omen, it is not the Guardian's death that restores their pillar but the return of their token. Stands to reason then that the magic of the Pillar's aspect is contained not in the Guardian but in the token, with the Guardians tasked to safekeep and wield the magic as necessary for Nosgoth's benefit.
    This is a good note, perhaps indeed the source of their power comes from their tokens.
    This is open for discussion, i think... because i wonder if they got their powers from the tokens, or their powers manifested themselves in physical token forms...?
    I think this because some tokens were a part of the guardian, like for example:
    Nupraptor's token was his head;
    Azimuth token was her third eye;
    and Malek's token was his sarafan helmet (the only thing left of him basically).

    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    A reasonable system: If a Guardian got a little too big for his station, the Ancients simply confiscate the token and drain the magic back into the Pillar which triggers the selection of a new Guardian, at which point they re-imbue the token. And presumably for simplicity, the tokens are passed down alongside the Guardianship so every Nature guardian wore the headdress, every Time guardian wielded the hourglass, etcetera...
    This part i don't agree with you...i don't think a guardian can be "unselected". I think they have to die in other for a new guardian to be chosen. They are chosen from birth, so i'd say the guardianship isn't a choice.

    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Kain carries the tokens throughout Blood Omen but abandons them at some point. Granted that by that point, they are long rendered powerless, ordinary items...If some knowledgeable, enterprising magician sect discovered one, knew it for what it was, and became driven to figure out a (lesser, weaker) method for imbuing items with the Pillars' power for use in the war...

    Admittedly, that interpretation does open the question of what was Ariel's (and Kain's) token. I have considered that question and have an answer but it's not really relevant to the topic or your question.
    Indeed the relics become useless after Kain "removes" them from the guardians. This is also open to discussion though...why did they lose their power? Are maybe the guardians the only ones who can use the tokens?

    About Kain and Ariel. It's been confirmed that the balance guardian's token is his/her soul. There are theories that this is why Ariel is bound to the pillars (she can't be absorbed due to the pillar's corruption).
    Last edited by ParadoxicalOmen; 30th Apr 2015 at 01:08.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    I'm not sure if this is considered official, but both the wiki, and dark chronicle considered that Bane "stripped/dug pieces of the ground/earth":
    http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bane.php
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Bane

    I think this because some tokens were a part of the guardian, like for example:
    Nupraptor's token was his head;
    Azimuth token was her third eye;
    and Malek's token was his sarafan helmet (the only thing left of him basically).

    About Kain and Ariel. It's been confirmed that the balance guardian's token is his/her soul. There are theories that this is why Ariel is bound to the pillars (she can't be absorbed due to the pillar's corruption).
    If that's official, it's insufferably lame. 'Stripped' might suggest he magically tore away large chunks of earth to expose underlying water though, which is acceptable.

    Nupraptor's token was his head (specifically, I believe, his brain - taking the whole head was just simpler) because he was the Mind guardian. Azimuth's token was not an extra eye grown as part of her but a symbolic amulet. Note that the 'third eye' - real or not, magical either way - is already tacked onto a metal back when Kain takes it. Also images of her show no extra eyes. And Malek was a Guardian before his curse so the helmet was not really a part of him at the time, but symbolic of battle and conflict.

    Every other token is restored to its pillar despite corruption. If Ariel's soul alone were the token, it should restore the pillar. Seems inconsistent. My theory is a bit different: That her token is, specifically, the combination of her body and soul - balance of material/spectral.


    The following is just TL;DR stuff about the tokens/pillars and Ariel:

    - The Pillars are raised.
    - The tokens manifest as physical symbols of the Pillar aspects. They hold no inherent magic.
    - The tokens are passed down through the Guardian line, safeguarded by the Ancients during the selection process.
    - The Guardians are selected by the Pillars.
    - The tokens magically bind to their Guardians.
    - Magic is imbued from the respective pillar into the respective tokens, providing their power.
    - Mind and Balance have no permanent token but are imbued directly into the Guardian.
    - The tokens can only be used by Guardians but the magic inside could conceivably be funneled into other objects.
    - Killing a Guardian unbinds their token, temporarily 'breaking' the Circle while the selection process resets.
    - A token's magic returned heals any corruption.
    - After a new Guardian is born, the relevant token's magic is re-imbued.




    - Ariel's token: Body/Soul

    - Her nature as Balance Guardian forcibly binds her to the corrupted pillars until balance is restored.
    - The return of a token's magic requires its return to the Pillars.
    - Ariel's death destroyed herself and her token, triggering a new selection yet preventing the proper return of its magic.
    - The return of a token's magic requires its return to the Pillars.
    - The return of the 'Balance' token requires the death of the Guardian at the pillars to relinquish the magic.
    - Kain's sacrifice at the Pillars would have properly restored the Balance Pillar's magic and finally cleansed the Circle.
    - A Balance Guardian willingly sacrificing themselves for balance's sake, as Kain should have, will restore the pillar.
    - A Balance Guardian perishing via murder (ala Ariel) corrupts balance. Note that the EG and Moebius urge Raziel to kill Kain to 'restore balance' yet both have an interest in Nosgoth staying corrupted.

    - SR Ariel, trapped for centuries, driven to madness and lusting for revenge, has either forgotten this detail or views Kain as a lost cause and would rather place her hopes on his eventual successor.


    All speculation, of course, and quite a ways off-topic by now. XP Further talk should probably be relocated.
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 30th Apr 2015 at 23:07.

  23. #23
    Ariels soul wouldn't have restored the pillar because it had already moved on to Kain as it's next guardian. Ariel dies, the pillar chooses Kain as her replacement, Nupraptor discovers Ariels corpse, goes mad with greif/revenge/paranoia and then infects the living members of the circle, which includes Kain at that point. It's Kain soul that the pillar requires, not Ariels.

    That's why it's so important that his soul is purified at the end of Defiance.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  24. #24
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    Well, when talking about Blood Omen and what happens in it, it's important to remember that it was conceived quite differently than what came later. Based on things Silicon Knights have said, I strongly feel that the original intent in Blood Omen was that Ariel was killed only a few days before Kain was killed. What's important to remember is that originally, Guardians weren't born into their roles:

    Is Malek of the Sarafan a member of the Circle of Nine?

    Yes, he his. Originally "recruited" to protect the Circle, he came to embody the spirit of conflict, and became that pillar's "representative" in Nosgoth.

    Source: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/reso...aq/faqmisc.htm

    So Malek wasn't a Guardian at first, but became one. He might have been chosen to replace one killed by Vorador, but there are not details about just how many Guardians Vorador was intended to have killed in that game. Going by this answer, it seems likely that Kain was chosen after Ariel died, and that Blood Omen starts up only a week or so after Ariel was killed. I feel that the effects on Nosgoth by the madness of the Circle make more sense if this is all recent, rather than them being insane for about 30 years, but it still obviously works if we go with how things are stated in the series as it is, with them just going more and more insane as the years pass.

    I've always taken it that the binding token is something they possess that is special to them, and comes to embody them. But it's kind of strange. Let's use Malek for example. He wasn't always a Sarafan, but he would have always been the Conflict Guardian, so how could his helmet work as his binding token? Was there a point when he wasn't a full Guardian or something? This does seem to be a hole left by the writers of Legacy of Kain from Soul Reaver on. Of course, Blood Omen is the only game that even mentions these things, so maybe they intended to just gloss over it as they went on.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by FearGhoul
    Well, when talking about Blood Omen and what happens in it, it's important to remember that it was conceived quite differently than what came later. Based on things Silicon Knights have said, I strongly feel that the original intent in Blood Omen was that Ariel was killed only a few days before Kain was killed. What's important to remember is that originally, Guardians weren't born into their roles:

    Is Malek of the Sarafan a member of the Circle of Nine?

    Yes, he his. Originally "recruited" to protect the Circle, he came to embody the spirit of conflict, and became that pillar's "representative" in Nosgoth.

    Source: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/reso...aq/faqmisc.htm

    So Malek wasn't a Guardian at first, but became one. He might have been chosen to replace one killed by Vorador, but there are not details about just how many Guardians Vorador was intended to have killed in that game. Going by this answer, it seems likely that Kain was chosen after Ariel died, and that Blood Omen starts up only a week or so after Ariel was killed. I feel that the effects on Nosgoth by the madness of the Circle make more sense if this is all recent, rather than them being insane for about 30 years, but it still obviously works if we go with how things are stated in the series as it is, with them just going more and more insane as the years pass.

    I've always taken it that the binding token is something they possess that is special to them, and comes to embody them. But it's kind of strange. Let's use Malek for example. He wasn't always a Sarafan, but he would have always been the Conflict Guardian, so how could his helmet work as his binding token? Was there a point when he wasn't a full Guardian or something? This does seem to be a hole left by the writers of Legacy of Kain from Soul Reaver on. Of course, Blood Omen is the only game that even mentions these things, so maybe they intended to just gloss over it as they went on.
    That's extremely out of date information that was overruled by what was later said in Soul Reaver 2. Kain and Janos both say that the guardians are chosen from birth.
    http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/l...willendorf.php

    There's more detail here:
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Pillar_Guardians
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 4th May 2015 at 11:35.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

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