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Thread: Possible clue to sixth human class?

Possible clue to sixth human class?

  1. #26
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    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    He is never shown to dig, just sort of kneel and touch the ground for a time. I believe he was channeling his magic as the nature guardian to transform the earth into water. Otherwise...The big bad guardian of an integral aspect of the entire world...Just dug some holes. Really?
    I think the majority of players were underwhelmed by Bane's behaviour in that boss fight. It's not exactly what I would look to as an ideal representation if I were trying to figure out what the Nature Guardians are truly capable of.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  2. #27
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    That's extremely out of date information that was overruled by what was later said in Soul Reaver 2. Kain and Janos both say that the guardians are chosen from birth.
    http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/l...willendorf.php

    There's more detail here:
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Pillar_Guardians
    That's my point. I'm talking about the original intent of Blood Omen, not how the series is now. Well, I was at first, and eventually I started talking about the series as it is. I probably should have made that clearer. I brought this up because people are talking about things that are only in Blood Omen, like the tokens, and I think it's important to understand that the ideas have changed since then. Legacy of Kain in fact does not all mesh up together quite as well as we'd like. For example, the whole thing about Turel being Hash'ak'gik actually starts falling apart if you really examine things closely.

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by FearGhoul
    That's my point. I'm talking about the original intent of Blood Omen, not how the series is now. Well, I was at first, and eventually I started talking about the series as it is. I probably should have made that clearer. I brought this up because people are talking about things that are only in Blood Omen, like the tokens, and I think it's important to understand that the ideas have changed since then. Legacy of Kain in fact does not all mesh up together quite as well as we'd like. For example, the whole thing about Turel being Hash'ak'gik actually starts falling apart if you really examine things closely.
    People talk about how the Turel thing falls apart yet I've never seen anybody actually explain how it does so.

  4. #29
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    So the explanation in Defiance for the reference to the "blood sacrifice" is to feed Turel, a giant Vampire. Seems to work all right at first, but once you really start digging deep, it doesn't really work. The "blood sacrifice" Defiance is referring to is from Blood Omen, and the book Kain discovers while exploring the "Hell" part of Avernus Cathedral:

    "And Hash'ak'gik spoke to the world, and all who heard trembled.
    "Bring me your first born, and shed their blood on the altar of the world, so I might take nourishment from them.
    "Do this without question, or suffer my wrath for eternity.
    "And its will was done."

    Now the thing is that Blood Omen is a very self contained game. Throughout the game, Kain finds Spirit Forges, with wraiths and shades that offer rewards for.... a blood sacrifice. The Spirit Forges have statues of demons and a whispering voice offering rewards. Demons of course have to do with Hash'ak'gik, and Hash'ak'gik is the one possessing Mortanius at various times, like when Ariel is killed, when you hear Mortanius mock Kain, and of course at the very end when Mortanius says he welcomes his death, yet instead starts fighting Kain and then transforms into a demon. There's also a book in Willendorf's library:

    "I came upon another book of interest buried deep amongst the library’s tomes. It spoke of a small cult that existed in Nosgoth, ages past. Wherever they traveled strange tales of human possession would follow. Little is known of the god they worshipped."

    This cult that had human possession is obviously the cult of Hash'ak'gik, and Mortanius is possessed by Hash'ak'gik. I realize that this probably looks like I'm getting off topic, but I think that we really need to understand Hash'ak'gik to understand why Turel being Hash'ak'gik falls apart.
    The book says that this cult existed in ages past. The book has to be referring to the beginning of this cult, and so is referring to something long ago. Hash'ak'gik appeared long ago demanding blood sacrifices, and the Spirit Forges are shrines set up to him, receiving blood to strengthen his foothold on Nosgoth, which of course means that any time Kain decides to offer blood for some helpful trinkets, that he's actually helping his greatest enemy.
    Maybe we can dismiss the fact that Turel is from the damned future of Kain's empire, since we don't really know anything about the original timeline. Maybe Kain's empire would still have existed in a different way, and there still would have been a son that either was or was like Turel, and he gets pulled back. We can't say for certain either way with that, but this isn't the big problem. The big problem is that the official answer for why Turel is there is because Azimuth the Planar, Guardian of the Pillar of the Planes, pulled him back with one of Moebius's timestreaming devices (the one Kain finds after killing her). But how can that work? Hash'ak'gik made his demand long ago, generations ago. This cult is very old. I really don't see why we should assume that they only sprung up some time within Azimuth's life, though now that I think about it, I guess she was around for potentially 500 years, so I guess the cult of Hash'ak'gik could have only started up around then.... Makes it not as impressive to me if those books are referring to things only that old.

    Now I love that they finally did directly refer to the cult of Hash'ak'gik again, but unfortunately, they didn't make everything sync up quite as it should have. Damn, I feel like I'm forgetting something, like there's something that really makes it clearer that the cult of Hash'ak'gik existed before Vorador killed the Circle, but I can't actually thing of anything solid.

    Also, sorry if I've derailed this topic, that wasn't my intent. It's just the talk of Blood Omen and such just leads me to start talking about what I feel the game's original intent was.

  5. #30
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    I wonder, with regard to Turel being Hash'ak'gik, if it is a case of something from one timeline being brought into another? Azimuth may have used a time device from Mobius to reach into the future; but she was also the Guardian of Dimension and conjured creatures from many alternate realms, so perhaps with her own magic in combination with the time device she reached into the future of the timeline that we are familiar with?

    Perhaps it isn't one timeline constantly being changed through historical alterations; but rather those creating the alterations are being brought into an alternate timeline where the changes have already been set to occur? Just as going back in time changed nothing because their path always took them there, perhaps Kain & Raziel's path to achieving their destinies was always meant to take them through different timelines? The Kain we know comes from the timeline of the Nemesis, that memory has never changed; and how can he remember the history of a timeline if it no longer exists?

  6. #31
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    I wonder, with regard to Turel being Hash'ak'gik, if it is a case of something from one timeline being brought into another? Azimuth may have used a time device from Mobius to reach into the future; but she was also the Guardian of Dimension and conjured creatures from many alternate realms, so perhaps with her own magic in combination with the time device she reached into the future of the timeline that we are familiar with?

    Perhaps it isn't one timeline constantly being changed through historical alterations; but rather those creating the alterations are being brought into an alternate timeline where the changes have already been set to occur? Just as going back in time changed nothing because their path always took them there, perhaps Kain & Raziel's path to achieving their destinies was always meant to take them through different timelines? The Kain we know comes from the timeline of the Nemesis, that memory has never changed; and how can he remember the history of a timeline if it no longer exists?
    I imagine Kain's remembrance has something to do with his Guardian role. Balance of the timeline is still an aspect of balance, after all. Raziel, of course, is simply a complete anomaly.

    As for Turel/Hash, I have my thoughts (as well as a number of other theories that I have pondered but do not subscribe to)...But all this lore talk really needs its own thread.

  7. #32
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    Originally Posted by FearGhoul
    The big problem is that the official answer for why Turel is there is because Azimuth the Planar, Guardian of the Pillar of the Planes, pulled him back with one of Moebius's timestreaming devices (the one Kain finds after killing her). But how can that work? Hash'ak'gik made his demand long ago, generations ago. This cult is very old. I really don't see why we should assume that they only sprung up some time within Azimuth's life, though now that I think about it, I guess she was around for potentially 500 years, so I guess the cult of Hash'ak'gik could have only started up around then.... Makes it not as impressive to me if those books are referring to things only that old.
    But why are you assuming that Hash'ak'gik, who is a fake god, was represented by Turel at the outset of the cult's history?
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  8. #33
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    Mortanius's lines in Defiance are clearly echoing the book Kain finds in Avernus. The blood sacrifice is stated in Defiance to be to keep the host alive, which is suggesting that Hash'ak'gik had Turel possessed and gave those orders, the quote in the book. Of course, you could say that it's just the coincidence that Turel is a Vampire and needs blood and that the Spirit Forge altars to Hash'ak'gik need blood, but personally, I think they just screwed up.
    But yeah, this all probably belongs in it's own topic.

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by FearGhoul
    Mortanius's lines in Defiance are clearly echoing the book Kain finds in Avernus. The blood sacrifice is stated in Defiance to be to keep the host alive, which is suggesting that Hash'ak'gik had Turel possessed and gave those orders, the quote in the book. Of course, you could say that it's just the coincidence that Turel is a Vampire and needs blood and that the Spirit Forge altars to Hash'ak'gik need blood, but personally, I think they just screwed up.
    But yeah, this all probably belongs in it's own topic.
    Before Kain was tricked into igniting the genocide against the vampires in BO1, there would have been a lot more of them for the hylden to choose as their host. They needed a durable vessel and as immortals, vampires would have been the best candidates.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by FearGhoul
    Mortanius's lines in Defiance are clearly echoing the book Kain finds in Avernus. The blood sacrifice is stated in Defiance to be to keep the host alive, which is suggesting that Hash'ak'gik had Turel possessed and gave those orders, the quote in the book. Of course, you could say that it's just the coincidence that Turel is a Vampire and needs blood and that the Spirit Forge altars to Hash'ak'gik need blood, but personally, I think they just screwed up.
    Is that not again making an assumption, about the book's age? There's no evidence that it dates back 500 years or more to the origins of the cult. It only suggests that he began asking for blood at some point.

    Incidentally, I still do contend that any link between the Spirit Forges and Hash'ak'gik is coincidence. Even in the original concept, with just Silicon Knights. Kain is immediately familiar with the Forges and states they're manned by shades and wraiths. They're an almost mundane neutral force swapping items for blood. Hash'ak'gik is supposed to be a mysterious, godlike entity on a whole other plane similar to the Ancients from Eternal Darkness, I think. Further, the Forges use various mutant/undead creature models, anything monstrous, not just demons specifically. That both they and Hash are looking for blood sacrifices does not necessarily indicate a connection, because sacrifice is a common theme in the Blood Omen world to begin with.

    I think Hash'ak'gik was probably contrived very, very late in development after it was decided to revise the idea of Mortanius being the antagonist, and that anything to do with him is essentially a stinger for the next game they had planned.
    Last edited by Lord_Aevum; 6th May 2015 at 13:33.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    Kain is immediately familiar with the Forges and states they're manned by shades and wraiths.
    Inhabited. Not manned. IIRC.

  12. #37
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    Well, a Wraith Smith is a Smith. They are not there offering items that they haven't forged themselves, I am sure.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by Lord_Aevum
    Well, a Wraith Smith is a Smith. They are not there offering items that they haven't forged themselves, I am sure.
    True. Though the term 'wraith smith' is not in the game proper, as I recall. But the statues representing the 'smiths' in the game proper do all look much like the demons from both BO/SR2...

  14. #39
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    True. Though the term 'wraith smith' is not in the game proper, as I recall. But the statues representing the 'smiths' in the game proper do all look much like the demons from both BO/SR2...
    "One must be wary in dealing with the Spirit Forges. The Wraiths and Shades that inhabit them offer items beyond mortal dreams, in exchange for a sampling of your blood. The Wraith Smiths forge their items with forfeit souls."
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    "One must be wary in dealing with the Spirit Forges. The Wraiths and Shades that inhabit them offer items beyond mortal dreams, in exchange for a sampling of your blood. The Wraith Smiths forge their items with forfeit souls."
    Ah, my bad. Nonetheless, there do seem to be many connections to demons/the Avernus cult. The color scheme, the blood sacrifice, the demonic appearance...

    I'd wager the term 'wraith smith' is not meant as 'a smith who is a wraith' but a denotation of the material worked with. They forge their items with souls. Spirits. Wraiths. Not unlike metalsmith, silversmith, coppersmith, tinsmith, locksmith...

  16. #41
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Ah, my bad. Nonetheless, there do seem to be many connections to demons/the Avernus cult. The color scheme, the blood sacrifice, the demonic appearance...

    I'd wager the term 'wraith smith' is not meant as 'a smith who is a wraith' but a denotation of the material worked with. They forge their items with souls. Spirits. Wraiths. Not unlike metalsmith, silversmith, coppersmith, tinsmith, locksmith...
    It's clearly talking about the same beings though. It says wraiths inhabit the forges and then goes on to mention wraith smiths. You take a possessed person/creature to the very same being that asks for your blood and they use it's soul as forfeit to give you many many items. It's not that complicated.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 6th May 2015 at 17:07.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  17. #42
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    It's clearly talking about the same beings though. It says wraiths inhabit the forges and then goes on to mention wraith smiths. You take a possessed person/creature to the very same being that asks for your blood and they use it's soul as forfeit to give you many many items. It's not that complicated.
    He does say "the wraiths and shades that inhabit...offer items..." which suggests the 'wraiths and shades' and the 'wraith smith' the same beings but...That seems problematic.

    As you say, it says wraiths inhabit the forges and then goes on to mention wraith smiths. Yes. But why would Kain mention the very same wraiths twice in immediate succession? People don't generally talk like that unless they have verbal tics or something. And why would he specify a wraith smith if he had already qualified it as being a wraith immediately prior?

    He does say "the wraiths and shades that inhabit...offer items..." which suggests they're the same beings (as the smiths do the offering) but that still makes the speech redundant and odd rather than clear. And there is still the issue of "____smith" basically always denoting work materials, not the species of the smith. Nobody has ever been called a humansmith.


    And the use of 'forfeit souls' is a bit problematic itself. Kain himself never forfeits any soul, only blood. So where is the smith getting its material in those scenarios? I'd always figured that the 'wraiths and shades' said to inhabit the forges were the forfeited souls (of humans, shades and whatnot) kept there. They 'offer' the items in the sense of their souls being used (by the smith, who works with wraiths) to forge the artifacts.

    But regardless of the nature of the forges, I don't see any great fault in the Turel/Hash thing that originated this line of talk.

  18. #43
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    With regard to the Wraith Smiths, they are still around in this era. They are the ones responsible for the Splitter Axe that is used by the Vanguard.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    With regard to the Wraith Smiths, they are still around in this era. They are the ones responsible for the Splitter Axe that is used by the Vanguard.
    You're right, it says on the description "A wraith-forged throwing axe (...)". Nice, i never noticed this.

  20. #45
    the more classes the better in my eyes it allows more strageys to be implemented

  21. #46
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    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    You're right, it says on the description "A wraith-forged throwing axe (...)". Nice, i never noticed this.
    It would be nice if they also had a part in the lore behind the Vanguard's future elite skin, at least the shield anyway. I'd enjoy wraith combo of shield and axe; and I'd actually be more inclined to actually utilize the splitter axe more often.

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by GenFeelGood
    It would be nice if they also had a part in the lore behind the Vanguard's future elite skin, at least the shield anyway. I'd enjoy wraith combo of shield and axe; and I'd actually be more inclined to actually utilize the splitter axe more often.
    Man, this would be awesome. Even if it was only a visual effect...seeing the wraith armor again would be so nostalgic
    Elite vanguard with wraith armor and weapons

  23. #48
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    Vanguard Wraith Armor & Shield, forged from the tortured souls of the Vanguard's countless vampiric victims. Right here Psyonix, please consider this in the direction of the prestige skin for the Vanguard.

  24. #49
    Here's a idea of mine for the currently absent 6th Human Class.

    The Impaler:
    "Formed to emulate the Vampire hunters of old: the Legendary
    Sarafan Order, who where renowned for there brutal use of the Pike in
    combating the Vampire Scourge of their time.The Impaler's have embraced this Legacy full heartedly even going as far to forge their armour in the image of the old Orders in an effort to simultaneously embolden fellow humans familiar with the tale and drive fear into the Black Hearts of similarly knowing Vampires.

    In the Days to come their Greatest Victory against the
    Vampires will be when they lead the storming of Lord Dumah's fortress using
    his own arrogance to launch a surprise attack and win the day by Skewering
    the Evolved Vampire onto his very throne."

  25. #50
    It might be neat if the druid was a counterpart to the summoner. Maybe summon some of nature's forces. They would probably need to be meat-shields, since vamps can just rip through them with their melee attacks. A defensive type of summon, as opposed to offensive, perhaps?

    If he could shape-shift, it might be an interesting melee-range defense mechanism. Perhaps 3 seconds of shapeshifted form. It would be hard to balance though, because if he were to become melee, the vampires could just kite him. But then if you increased his movement speed, he could run away and be really annoying to catch, if not impossible. It would either need a lot of fine tuning, or just be nonviable.

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