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Thread: Two Whales Diner | Off-topic Chat

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    What exactly do you mean by "realized"?
    Sorry, I sometimes use slightly arcane word definitions.

    Realize:to cause (something) to become real

    Basically it feels more real to me. From what little I know of Star Trek, it seems it was designed as a narrative and not a world (or galaxy--you get my point). My favorite game developer is Bioware because they build worlds, they don't just make game plots. Mass Effect puts Shepard in a "living, breathing" galaxy that has tons of interesting stuff going on outside of him, showcased by a deep "codex" database detailing dozens of things that have nothing to do with stopping the Reapers but flesh out the game world.

    The Force, Light/Dark Side, Jedi and Sith, and so on--these are things designed to flesh out a universe, not just provoke an immediate narrative.

    How many elements of Star Trek remain between episodes? Seasons?

    Edit: Unrelated statement: For some reason I feel like I had an account here BEFORE October of 2013, but the forums were updated and I had to re-register or something. I'm probably crazy. Just looking at Grimoire's post and thinking, there's no way that he/she joined in 2013...
    Last edited by EternalAmbiguity; 6th Apr 2015 at 23:44.
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  2. #27
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    Hello everyone! Nice to see this thread kicking off, funnily enough I watched both of the JJ Abrams Star Trek films over the weekend. Great movies!

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Star Wars doesn't try to tell the audience what's right and what's wrong?
    They don't have to, it's too obvious.

    I don't really place any importance of who was at the helm (in the figurative sense that is, heh). I'm not sure I'm following you regarding "improved humanity"; the characters still had many flaws and shortcomings. I think TNG and Voyager were the best series in the franchise. Tried watching a bunch of DS9 episodes but just couldn't get into it. It had little appeal to me.
    Roddenberry designed the Federation as a utopian society. There was hardly any conflict between the characters and the Federation could do no wrong. And in case someone actually did something questionable, it usually happened to teach a lesson.

    All that changed in DS9. The Starfleet officers still acted exemplary for the most part, but there was a lot more conflict and they introduced several other characters who weren't bound by Federation principles. And during the Dominion War even Starfleet and/or individual Starfleet officers played as dirty as it gets.

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity View Post
    Basically it feels more real to me. From what little I know of Star Trek, it seems it was designed as a narrative and not a world (or galaxy--you get my point).

    [...]

    How many elements of Star Trek remain between episodes? Seasons?
    It depends on the series.

    "The Original Series", "The Next Generation" and "Voyager" feature essentially only stand alone episodes and not a lot of character development, if any.

    "Deep Space Nine" has a couple of story arcs and the most character development of any Trek series. Most episodes are still stand alone, though. And since it's about a stationary space station, there is a lot more room for world building.

    "Enterprise" starts with two seasons of stand alone episodes, the third season follows a single story arc and the fourth season consists mostly of multi-part episodes.

  4. #29
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    Let's see...

    Sponge cake or apple pie?

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity View Post
    Sorry, I sometimes use slightly arcane word definitions.

    Realize:to cause (something) to become real

    Basically it feels more real to me. From what little I know of Star Trek, it seems it was designed as a narrative and not a world (or galaxy--you get my point). My favorite game developer is Bioware because they build worlds, they don't just make game plots. Mass Effect puts Shepard in a "living, breathing" galaxy that has tons of interesting stuff going on outside of him, showcased by a deep "codex" database detailing dozens of things that have nothing to do with stopping the Reapers but flesh out the game world.

    The Force, Light/Dark Side, Jedi and Sith, and so on--these are things designed to flesh out a universe, not just provoke an immediate narrative.
    Thanks for clarifying your POV. I don't necessarily agree with you on everything, but I understand better what you meant now

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity View Post
    How many elements of Star Trek remain between episodes? Seasons?
    Depends on what kind of elements you mean. There are reoccurring themes and enemies throughout the seasons of TNG and Voyager. And some characters undergo constant character development from episode to episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity View Post
    Edit: Unrelated statement: For some reason I feel like I had an account here BEFORE October of 2013, but the forums were updated and I had to re-register or something. I'm probably crazy. Just looking at Grimoire's post and thinking, there's no way that he/she joined in 2013...
    These are not the old SE America forums, but posts and accounts from that forum were imported here. Same with the Eidos Forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
    They don't have to, it's too obvious.
    Apparently it wasn't too obvious to Lucas if he had to redo his films, heh.

    Seriously, though, I agree it's obvious. But I would say the same about Star Trek, despite what Roddenberry thinks. It's just that with Star Trek you get thrown curve balls. Which I personally find more interesting than the cliche inherently good vs inherently bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
    Roddenberry designed the Federation as a utopian society. There was hardly any conflict between the characters and the Federation could do no wrong.
    I don't agree with that conclusion. There was plenty of conflict between the characters in Star Trek. You're right that the Federation was designed to be utopian-like, though. But that sure didn't stop there being a lot of conflict between the people flying under the same Federation flag.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
    All that changed in DS9. The Starfleet officers still acted exemplary for the most part
    Well, high ranking officers usually do, yes. That's part of their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
    "The Original Series", "The Next Generation" and "Voyager" feature essentially only stand alone episodes and not a lot of character development, if any.
    I don't agree with the conclusion that there was little to none character development in Star Trek. I think a more accurate statement would be that the Star Wars films saw fast character development (because Lucas was forced to do it that way, as you can do only so much in a few feature films) whereas in Star Trek the character development happened at a much slower pace, giving it merely the impression that there is little to none.

  5. #30
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    He joined the SE Members site as soon as it went online (2008) and prefers apple pie.

  6. #31
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    With or without whipped cream on top?

  7. #32
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    Without - but with all the more apples in it.

  8. #33
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    THERE'S A NEW DEUS EX GAME AND I'M SO EXCITED!!!

    I haven't been excited about a game in ages. This is a big deal for me.



    I also like apple pie with or without whipped cream.

  9. #34
    A ha! That was it. The switch from America to European. I remember now. I waited to re-register my account. Thanks.

    I don't like sweets very much, so neither for me.

    And more Deus Ex is always good. Looks like I inadvertently called it :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Thanks for clarifying your POV. I don't necessarily agree with you on everything, but I understand better what you meant now

    Depends on what kind of elements you mean. There are reoccurring themes and enemies throughout the seasons of TNG and Voyager. And some characters undergo constant character development from episode to episode.
    I'm not talking about concepts and themes, I'm talking about actual in-world elements.

    Are the different seasons and series...es(?) set in the same universe? Or are they different universes, essentially a "reboot" of the franchise? Because if it's the latter, it's less realized--you've got half a dozen different "canons" or "continuities" all running along with different information about the alien races, about the human race (the Federation, is it?).

    It's a problem I initially found off-putting about Final Fantasy before 2009 when I experienced XIII and saw the magnificent world they created.

    (well, let's be honest, I found it off-putting until I saw that poster of Light up at Gamestop months before and I was like, wow! I need this game :P)


    Star Wars (at least until Disney showed up) was a single universe with a single canon. Granted weaker for the "extended universe," but still one universe.
    Last edited by EternalAmbiguity; 8th Apr 2015 at 21:24.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity View Post
    A ha! That was it. The switch from America to European. I remember now. I waited to re-register my account. Thanks.
    NP

    I don't like sweets very much, so neither for me.
    Hmm, then you must be into salty things?

    So... Doritos or Lays?

    I'm not talking about concepts and themes, I'm talking about actual in-world elements.

    Are the different seasons and series...es(?) set in the same universe? Or are they different universes, essentially a "reboot" of the franchise? Because if it's the latter, it's less realized--you've got half a dozen different "canons" or "continuities" all running along with different information about the alien races, about the human race (the Federation, is it?).

    It's a problem I initially found off-putting about Final Fantasy before 2009 when I experienced XIII and saw the magnificent world they created.

    (well, let's be honest, I found it off-putting until I saw that poster of Light up at Gamestop months before and I was like, wow! I need this game :P)


    Star Wars (at least until Disney showed up) was a single universe with a single canon. Granted weaker for the "extended universe," but still one universe.
    Ah right, I see what you mean now. Yes, the Star Trek universe is quite consistent as far as I know. At least the older series were, I'm not sure how it is with the recent reboot films.

    In fact, there were a bunch of cross-overs in TNG, DS9 and Voyager from what I recall. I believe the ship's doctor in Voyager originally came from the space station in DS9. Then there's the Borg who made many appearances in both TNG and Voyager, with Voyager even having an ex-Borg main character. And in one of the films, Generations, William Shatner (TOS) and Patrick Stewart (TNG) co-starred.

  11. #36
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    Doritos or Lays - OLW (sour cream and onion to be more precise).

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Hmm, then you must be into salty things?

    So... Doritos or Lays?
    I really don't eat "snacks" or otherwise "extraneous" food at all unless I'm particularly hungry. So I wouldn't say I'm "into" any particular kind of food, I just for some reason never had the slightest interest in cake or pie and such.

    Doritoes, though. Nacho Cheese. I remember once in school I ate four bags (the small ones) of Cool Ranch in the span of 10 minutes, don't think I've touched them since :P As far as Lays, for some reason I never found their salt-and-vinegar (you ARE kinda right there, heh) or their "basic" chips to be super good--eatable in a pinch, but I'd usually skip 'em.

    Ah right, I see what you mean now. Yes, the Star Trek universe is quite consistent as far as I know. At least the older series were, I'm not sure how it is with the recent reboot films.

    In fact, there were a bunch of cross-overs in TNG, DS9 and Voyager from what I recall. I believe the ship's doctor in Voyager originally came from the space station in DS9. Then there's the Borg who made many appearances in both TNG and Voyager, with Voyager even having an ex-Borg main character. And in one of the films, Generations, William Shatner (TOS) and Patrick Stewart (TNG) co-starred.
    Alright, cool. That's definitely a point in its favor.
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  13. #38
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    I can't say I like Doritos - there's just something about them that I don't like. I'll eat Lays, but I prefer other brands.

    Dark or milk chocolate?

  14. #39
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    Doritos all the way. In England Lays are called Walkers

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimoire View Post
    Doritos or Lays - OLW (sour cream and onion to be more precise).
    Good choice! I love sour cream and onion. Albeit from Lays.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stellazira View Post
    I can't say I like Doritos - there's just something about them that I don't like. I'll eat Lays, but I prefer other brands.

    Dark or milk chocolate?
    Milk chocolate for me. Or white.

  16. #41
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    Funny thread, I can't resist
    Same for me, Milk chocolate or white.
    Supreme damnation this one :

    add good coffee = paradise !

    Star Wars or Star Trek... none or both. Depending of my mood. But "Alien" is a better choice for me

  17. #42
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    I concur: I like my chocolate white.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Seriously, though, I agree it's obvious. But I would say the same about Star Trek, despite what Roddenberry thinks. It's just that with Star Trek you get thrown curve balls. Which I personally find more interesting than the cliche inherently good vs inherently bad.
    Inherently good or inherently bad characters are usually not very interesting, yes, but I don't mind the characters in the OT. It's a fairy tale in space and the characters work very well in it.
    The PT, unfortunately, is a different matter.

    I don't agree with that conclusion. There was plenty of conflict between the characters in Star Trek. You're right that the Federation was designed to be utopian-like, though. But that sure didn't stop there being a lot of conflict between the people flying under the same Federation flag.
    I don't remeber much conflict. Sure, they didn't always share an opinion, but it rarely resulted in anything more than an academic discussion. And it's not just that. The characters are all stiff and way too cerebral.

    Well, high ranking officers usually do, yes. That's part of their job.
    Yes, but it's also boring. Having characters like Quark, Garak and even Major Kira is a big plus.

    I don't agree with the conclusion that there was little to none character development in Star Trek. I think a more accurate statement would be that the Star Wars films saw fast character development (because Lucas was forced to do it that way, as you can do only so much in a few feature films) whereas in Star Trek the character development happened at a much slower pace, giving it merely the impression that there is little to none.
    It's not much. They tried it with Data, the Doctor and Seven, but that's basically it. Most characters stayed exactly the same, from the first to the last episode. Just compare it with the heavily serialized shows of the last decade.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Star Trek and I like TNG, but it's far from perfect.



    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Ah right, I see what you mean now. Yes, the Star Trek universe is quite consistent as far as I know. At least the older series were, I'm not sure how it is with the recent reboot films.

    In fact, there were a bunch of cross-overs in TNG, DS9 and Voyager from what I recall. I believe the ship's doctor in Voyager originally came from the space station in DS9. Then there's the Borg who made many appearances in both TNG and Voyager, with Voyager even having an ex-Borg main character. And in one of the films, Generations, William Shatner (TOS) and Patrick Stewart (TNG) co-starred.
    Yes, there are several crossovers. The Doctor isn't from DS9 (there might have been a similiar hologram in one or two episodes). O'Brien (season 1-7) and Worf (seasons 4-7) from TNG joined the Cast of DS9, though.

  19. #44
    Dark chocolate for me:

  20. #45
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    I like some dark chocolates as long as they aren't too "dark", but I'm mostly a milk chocolate person.

    So one class is finished for the semester which is really nice. I have two more and then it's summer.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellazira View Post
    I like some dark chocolates as long as they aren't too "dark", but I'm mostly a milk chocolate person.

    So one class is finished for the semester which is really nice. I have two more and then it's summer.
    Undergrad?
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  22. #47
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    Yeah. I can't wait to get my degree.

  23. #48
    Nice. I got mine last year, took a year off, and I'm headed back this fall to get my master's.
    Mooberry the Cow God demands repentance and belief!

  24. #49
    Speaking of Doritos, there was a contest called "Unlock Xbox". You could submit an idea, and they would consider developing a game based on it. Doritos broke their own rules, and picked whatever they wanted. A huge waste of time. But, I thought my idea was cool. It was low budget, so I proposed an on-rails shooter with hot babes and a basic plot.

    Here was my submission in 2007:





    signature image

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalAmbiguity View Post
    Nice. I got mine last year, took a year off, and I'm headed back this fall to get my master's.
    I've been taking it slow so as not to stress myself out too much and go into debt, but I just really want to finish now and get a job that pays well. It's going to start getting annoying now since a few of the courses I need are only available once a year.

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