Thread: Fan/player reviews - reactions (Spoilerific)

Fan/player reviews - reactions (Spoilerific)

  1. #651
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    Originally Posted by brethren
    Just for you, MT:
    I imagine MT already read this article many moons ago.
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  2. #652
    Why? Just because it's an article that has to do with Thief? I run into new Thief stuff on the web all the time that I haven't seen before.
    "I can see only one good thing coming from a Thief 4. Mark my words on this one. It will make people love Deadly Shadows." -Digital Nightfall (4/4/2008)

  3. #653
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    Originally Posted by brethren
    I run into new Thief stuff on the web all the time that I haven't seen before.

    Sure.
    I said I imagine he's read it; not that he definitely has, btw..... so you don't need to justify your own reasons for finding new Thief stuff on the web.

    Why? Just because it's an article that has to do with Thief?
    No, not because its an article that has to do with Thief. Its an old article and the content has most likely been repeated on numerous other sites; as is usually the case... so that is why I imagine he's already read it.
    Also, MT is a massive Thief fan, as we all know, and I would be surprised if he hasn't read it.

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  4. #654
    OK, I thought maybe I had linked it previously.
    "I can see only one good thing coming from a Thief 4. Mark my words on this one. It will make people love Deadly Shadows." -Digital Nightfall (4/4/2008)

  5. #655
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    I've read it before.

    I'm just more puzzled why you posted it. It's already established that I don't care what the popular consensus on the Thief series is. Everyone hates Thief 2014, I like it a lot. Everyone thinks Thief II is the bee's knees, I think most of it is a complete chore to play compared to its compatriots. I think of "nostalgia" as a derogatory curse word. I don't base my opinion on what other people think nor care what people think of my own opinion when it comes to subjective media.

    What exactly is the point of throwing someone else's opinion at me? That reading this article would somehow make Thief II more engaging for me when I play it in October like I do every year? I've already heard all the argument as to why Thief II is great a thousand times over, and I don't subscribe to them on the same level as everyone else.
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  6. #656
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    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    IEveryone hates Thief 2014...
    So not true.
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  7. #657
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    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    So not true.
    I know it's not true from first hand experience, but it certainly is the popular consensus by a section of the Thief community.
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  8. #658
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    Indeed.
    A small section of the community's views is no more relevant than another section.
    In truth, neither section reprexents "everyone". Which is cool. I absolutely love diversity.
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  9. #659
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    What exactly is the point of throwing someone else's opinion at me?
    Are you that closed minded that you won't even consider other people's opinions besides your own? If so, that's pretty sad.

    Sorry to have inconvenienced the thread by throwing around some opposing viewpoints. Sheesh. I was under the impression this was a discussion board.
    "I can see only one good thing coming from a Thief 4. Mark my words on this one. It will make people love Deadly Shadows." -Digital Nightfall (4/4/2008)

  10. #660
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    Originally Posted by brethren
    Are you that closed minded that you won't even consider other people's opinions besides your own? If so, that's pretty sad.
    Oh, please. I've heard every argument as to why Thief II is great for the past 14 years. I've listened, considered, and discussed it to death. This is subjective media meant to entertain, not a political discussion. I'm not nearly as entertained by Thief II as everyone else. It's an "in the moment" medium, and if I'm not engaged in the moment then how the hell is a discussion of the game's merits on a message board or an article about why SOMEONE ELSE enjoys the game supposed to change that for me? What matters when I'm playing a game is what I'm feeling, not someone else somewhere elsewhere. Do you play Thief II going "I enjoy this because other people do!"?

    My feelings on Thief II don't effect anyone but me and people who have a sad need to have everyone agree with them on subjective entertainment. Do you really and truly care that I don't like Thief II as much as you? If you that is truly the case, then I'm not the one who's pretty sad here.
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  11. #661
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I know it's not true from first hand experience, but it certainly is the popular consensus by a section of the Thief community.
    Not that I want to sound like I'm trying to discredit your opinion, but aren't a number of the criticisms you have of Thief 2 also present in THIEF? Aside from the kleptomaniacal thieving aspect, the latter also suffers from significant sound bugs (poor propagation, abysmal dialogue mixed etc.). Thief 2 was buggy too, granted, but I don't recall being any worse than the original game.

    In fact, I'd be curious to know; what do you personally consider to be the pillars of the Thief franchise, MT? What makes a Thief game, in your eyes?

  12. #662
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    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    In fact, I'd be curious to know; what do you personally consider to be the pillars of the Thief franchise, MT? What makes a Thief game, in your eyes?
    Happy to answer that.

    My pillars for a Thief game are not necessarily gameplay aspects, but rather feelings that are evoked from playing the game. Games are art for me, and art is meant to evoke emotions. Specifically, excitement through transgression and avarice are why I play Thief. The feeling of being somewhere I don't belong and taking what doesn't belong to me is what I found so outright appealing about Thief in the first place.

    If I had to go by gameplay pillars, I would list these as pillars:

    • Stealth by environment manipulation
    • Collection through theft
    • Exploration facilitated by observation


    As much as it makes other Thief fans go "WTF" when I say it, Thief is a collectible run stealth game. The player is driven to scrounge the environment for collectibles through the central premise of being a thief. The way they navigate through the mission is by using and manipulating the environment in their favor. Creating paths (water arrow on torch) and displacing obstacles (distracting guards) in order to find as many collectibles (loot) in the level, including a centralized goal object (Bafford's scepter, Rutherford Opal, Cornelius' Ring, etcetera). Levels should be filled with hidden collectibles and areas that can be found through careful observation of their surroundings (reading scrolls, eavesdropping, or simply attention to detail while in a room).

    Thief 2014 executes on all of these more often than Thief II does. It doesn't manage it nearly as often as The Dark Project and Deadly Shadows, both of which manage to pull this off on top of a sense of mission variety that kept me engaged from start to finish with a sense of variety in the context of each one. Hell, just look at The Dark Project's opening act:

    1. Steal a scepter (straight up heist)
    2. Prison break (steal a person)
    3. Tomb raiding (steal a relic)
    4. Intimidation (steal from a heavily guarded location to prove a point)


    People bemoan undead levels and other such things, but ultimately inclusion gave a truer sense of variety to the proceedings. Heck, the second act of stealing the Eye ended up facilitating two (and later, four) more heists for the purpose of an additional one. Each of these four missions was unique in its own way and had it's own individual appeal. And for all it's bugged out nonsense i find Undercover to be a charming breath of fresh air, forcing the player out of their comfort zone into a less familiar territory of stealth by disguise. I wish instead of chopping these things entirely out of the game, Looking Glass Studios instead had the bravery to ask how to improve these things in Thief II. Instead, the timidly cut out things that didn't fully work on the alter of appeasement. Thief II Gold was to include some of these that might have helped to improve the game significantly for me, unfortunately we all know what happened to LGS before that happened.

    There's also the deceptive non-linearity problem. I think the Thief community's unbridled worship of the concept of non-linear is misguided quite a bit. "Huge and non-linear" are not synonymous with "good". Non-linear levels are good when executed with a sense of conveyance. If I am ever walking around a mission going "WHERE DO I GO?! WHAT DO I DO?!" then we have a problem. Thieves Guild from Thief Gold is a prime example of this, where there's not really a sense of human logic to the environment. It's just a labyrinth of tunnels that largely look the same. The uber detailed map from the mission ironically doesn't help any. First City Bank and Trust has the same damn problem for me where when navigating that accursed building I can't get any sense of direction. it's an unintuitive mess and to this day I don't understand people's love of it. Whenever I've asked people, it always seem to boil down to that it's nonlinear. Yet people praise First City Bank and condemn Thieves Guild, and all I can do is throw my hands up and let them float their boat however they want.

    Meanwhile, two of the missions on my list of favorite Thief II missions are semi-linear affairs. There's a clear sense of progression in Trail of Blood, and it might actually be one of the most linear levels in the entire series that doesn't involve following someone around. But it's not only beautiful, but it provides much needed contrast to the game. Enemies don't all operate on the same principles as typical humans, it's otherworldy, and it's the first time in the game where Thief II's bizarre obsession with using every color in the crayon box is actually appropriate. Color dissidence in a realm of chaos makes thematic sense.

    Meanwhile Life of the Party condenses all the principles I want in Thief in general into a single mission. There's a clear three act structure, it's a semi-linear stage with a sense of conveyance and purpose, there's plenty of opportunities not only to infiltrate but exercise thievery, the place has a variety of environments with several different themes and ideas. There's plenty to be found and the level actively awards people with attention to detail. Life of the Party is the promise of what Thief can be, a perfect model of a Thief game condensed into a 2-3 hour run on the Thieves' Highway
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  13. #663
    Thief 2 is the worst thief???

    *takes a few minutes to digest that statement*

    OK, seriously screw thief 4, screw eidos, screw millenial hipster games design.

    Wake me up when games studios have balls again

    I'm done here

    *returns to the shadows*
    Thief 5 creation instructions: Play thief 2, play again, pay UDK4 or idTech 6 licence, employ engine programmers who are able to code jumping physics, listen to fans not ubisoft

  14. #664
    I'd tend to disagree on the "where do I go, what do I do?" issue. Non-linearity promotes exploration. Levels like The Sword and The Lost City, which have fairly useless maps, are great specifically because you don't know where anything is. You need to go find out for yourself.
    "I can see only one good thing coming from a Thief 4. Mark my words on this one. It will make people love Deadly Shadows." -Digital Nightfall (4/4/2008)

  15. #665
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    Originally Posted by brethren
    I'd tend to disagree on the "where do I go, what do I do?" issue. Non-linearity promotes exploration. Levels like The Sword and The Lost City, which have fairly useless maps, are great specifically because you don't know where anything is. You need to go find out for yourself.
    The Sword and The Lost City have a true sense of conveyance to the player. Using the environment alone the player is directed towards their ultimate goal without outright being told where to go and what to do. When conveyance is done well the player doesn't even realize it's happening (The Sword, Lost City, Life of the Party). When done poorly the player feels they are on the rails (Trace the Courier) OR they end up staring around the environment with bewilderment and confusion (Thieves Guild, First City Bank and Trust). Out of the two bad options, I'd rather have the former than the latter because at least there's a sense of progression.

    I don't like Lost City, but that has nothing to do with it's design. it's quite well designed. I just find cave missions in games to be boring in general. My least favorite Deadly Shadows mission is the Sunken Citadel for this same reason.
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  16. #666
    well it is true what you've said Master Taffer that Thief 2 does feel like an ''police-detective'' game,with almost all of the missions focusing on following and investigation,but it has a story that you will definitely remember,it has this sandbox feel and what is very nice,the game force you to be really stealthy like a master thief without killing anyone nor even blackjacking them in some missions,the same goes for TDP it has this story that I will never forget and some good missions but I still prefer TMA over it because TDP feels like an horror-stealth game for me with a little fantasy in it(with a lots of zombies,ghosts,demons which I didn't liked so much and not because I was scared but when I've played the first time I was expecting some real thief-stealth game without fantasy in it)
    But when someone mentions Thi4f I think about good graphics,nice weapons for thief series(lots of good arrows) and decent nice missions,like almost just only that because for me the story is not memorable at all,and this is all my opinion I am not going to say that you are a big hater because you don't like TMA and prefer Thi4f over it,because everyone has his opinion,just to give an example I myself doesn't like the Hitman games despite what everyone has to say about them

  17. #667
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I've read it before.

    I'm just more puzzled why you posted it. It's already established that I don't care what the popular consensus on the Thief series is. Everyone hates Thief 2014, I like it a lot. Everyone thinks Thief II is the bee's knees, I think most of it is a complete chore to play compared to its compatriots. I think of "nostalgia" as a derogatory curse word. I don't base my opinion on what other people think nor care what people think of my own opinion when it comes to subjective media.

    What exactly is the point of throwing someone else's opinion at me? That reading this article would somehow make Thief II more engaging for me when I play it in October like I do every year? I've already heard all the argument as to why Thief II is great a thousand times over, and I don't subscribe to them on the same level as everyone else.
    Well said! It raises questions about why the haters are who they are, that might be a social complex though. I think Thief 2 is the worst of the series as it has very little supernatural elements and focusses too much on human vs human/machine, whereas the others get it just right. The supernatural element makes Thief even more creepy
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  18. #668
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Happy to answer that.

    <Snip>
    That was a very interesting read, thank you.

    I think the one mission in the entire series that embodies everything I love about Thief would have to be 'Song of the Caverns'. I think it strikes a perfect balance between maintaining a coherent structure from a narrative standpoint, but still being just open enough to feel like a thieving playground...plus it has Raoul in it. Perhaps it's more condensed than 'Life of the Party', but in some ways that's why I felt it was more enjoyable, because it was tighter and more focused.

    Also, glad to find someone else who actually likes 'Undercover'; in fact, I think it's one of the better missions in the first game that also explores more of what can be done with the stealth system while also staying consistent with the core ideas behind the game.

    However, while I can sort-of see what you mean when talking about THIEF's level design; every time I played it, I could never shake the feeling that the missions were merely game levels instead of authentic locations. Too often I found there to be little consistency between the exterior of the building and the actual layout inside and how those two things actually tie into the purpose of that location.

    I don't want to go into too much detail here since I'm writing a blog post about it, but I've always found THIEF's missions rather artificial and by-the-numbers compared to the originals.

  19. #669
    Originally Posted by ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
    Well said! It raises questions about why the haters are who they are, that might be a social complex though.
    Oh wow.

  20. #670
    Originally Posted by ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
    The supernatural element makes Thief even more creepy
    Disagree. I'm not one for too much reliance on the supernatural (I'm scarred from Assassin's Creed) and I find that writers usually use it as a deus ex machina (Thief 2014). I thought Thief 2 was the creepiest of the series precisely because the game focused so much on human enemies so when you faced, say, a tree beast or a haunt, it was new and unknown. Also the bots were scarey as hell...

  21. #671
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    Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard
    Also the bots were scarey as hell...
    And that gold-child creep.

  22. #672
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    Originally Posted by Viktoria


    Indeed.
    A small section of the community's views is no more relevant than another section.
    In truth, neither section reprexents "everyone". Which is cool. I absolutely love diversity.
    as Master Taffer said it's the "popular consensus" which means "most people", not a "small section of the community" that is disappointed with nuThief.

    you need to finally come to terms with that.

  23. #673
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    The part you quote is in reply to MT stating "everyone hates Thief". I said this isn't true.
    It isn't true.
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  24. #674
    Originally Posted by Thorleifr
    And that gold-child creep.
    I still don't know the point of those.

    The basement of the bank gave me nightmares when I was younger. All you hear is: clank clank clank..."All should hear the words of Karras... the words of Karras"...clank clank clank..."Knowest thou? I do not know"...clank clank clank..."I have... noticed... thou"...clank clank clank..."It shall not escape! Hostile... wretched intruder!"

  25. #675
    I THINK it is supposed to attract attention from guards, that's what the wiki says at least... Although The Circle doesn't mention anything about alerting guards, and at the point when you encounter it in LOTP I've usually already KO'd them all so it doesn't really affect me much

    Gave me a fright when I first encountered it for sure.

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