Thread: Game Mechanics - Contextual jumping, leaning, swooping and mantling - All Discussion

Game Mechanics - Contextual jumping, leaning, swooping and mantling - All Discussion

  1. #626
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    Yes indeed.
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  2. #627
    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    In Thief, if there is a surface like this you need to avoid, I'm sure you will be able to. If its easier/quieter to skirt around something rather than jump and risk making a noise, then I imagine you can do that too. We know the game includes moss arrows for quieting floor surfaces.
    I comfort myself with that though. But I'd still prefer free jumping

    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    Those that have actually played the game didn't seem to have a problem. As usual, I must reserve judgement until the time I have played the game myself.
    Jerion did, but NIB has already provoded us with a quote.

    Originally Posted by DarknessFalls
    That's the problem... I don't think anyone is saying that the simple act of jumping, in and of itself, is fun and that that is why they want it.
    I do
    Originally Posted by DarknessFalls
    and that jumping apparently serves no purpose except to have some random, pointless fun.
    And what is the purpose of playing video games, could you remind me?

    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    [COLOR="Lime"]I said that because nobody has put forward any reason why it is VITAL to be able to jump on the spot.
    And why would it be VITAL to NOT be able to jump on the spot? There are many, more or less serious reasons to jump - from simple fun to things that can potentially get Garrett killed. For me that's valid enough.
    Unlike extremely weak justification of limited movement.

    Originally Posted by NIB
    Overall movement and especially jumping/mantling i find superior to Thief 1,2 and 3 in TDM.

    Yes, combat is strange, but not too much of an issue for me. Blackjacking works great - that's more important, i guess.
    Originally Posted by Cavalier
    ?? Movement in TDM is buttery smooth. You can mantle into small windows, mantle silently onto furniture, even mantle onto moving objects! Even has its own key so you don't have to risk jumping if you don't want to.
    A matter of taste, I suppose
    Crouching is great, that's for sure. I fully appreciated it when I had to squeeze through a small hole in the attic door in "Heart of Lone Salvation". Simply awesome.
    Mantling is great... unless you're running from a mob of angry guards, trying to mantle onto something, protagonist takes a second to adjust himself... and gets killed
    Jumping - I think I have to get used to it. People keep saying that it's incredible and there are no missed jumps - well, I keep missing jumps all the time for some reason There was one moment in "Return to the City" when I had to jump onto a chain hanging above the street - that was PAIN.
    Basic movement - I don't know, playing Thief 1 or 2 I really felt like a Master Thief - fast like a lighting bolt, elusive like shadow. In Dark Mod... It's just some random dude running. I'm not even sure if he can outrun guards, but judging from how fast they got me when I stuck on mantling - don't think so.

    Originally Posted by Cavalier
    Er..you can still KO alerted guards as long as they don't have helmets. I can take or leave the combat system--it's basically Mount and Blade combat. Takes some getting used to, but at least it's challenging.
    Really? Then I have to try harder next time
    But it still doesen't solve the problem with uninteresting missions...

  3. #628
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    Originally Posted by xlchtloi
    I comfort myself with that though. But I'd still prefer free jumping
    Okay, I understand the "I want it - even if I don't need it" approach.


    Jerion did, but NIB beat me to it.
    Sure... and MT didn't. So that's why I'm not worried.
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  4. #629
    Originally Posted by Viktoria
    Okay, I understand the "I want it - even if I don't need it" approach.
    I need it to fully enjoy the game, how about that?

  5. #630
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    Originally Posted by Viktoria

    Absorbing information doesn't necessarily mean one agrees with it.

    I said that because nobody has put forward any reason why it is VITAL to be able to jump on the spot.
    It's not about jumping on the spot.

    So you never rope arrowed on a balcony, climbed the railing, died and quickloaded 10 times while trying to jump across to some rooftop and when you finally did it asked yourself if you might be the first player to discover this alternative path?

    I don't want to lose this exploring aspect. I am afraid that paths might be to obvious in NuThief.

  6. #631
    Not understanding why people want freedom of movement is to misunderstand Thief gameplay.

    This equating free jumping with bunny hopping isn't just misleading and a poor attempt at misdirection, it's also one of the most unintellectual points of discussion I've ever had the misfortune of encountering in gameplay discussion. And that reflects on the people who keep bringing it up.

    Now I'm going to be told that this is insulting, I'll be threatened with an "infraction".

    But this is the truth.

    It's as if we're talking about how seatbelts increase driver safety in a crash and the counter argument is all about how you don't look cool with them on so you are actually not safer - it is totally nonsensical.



    Also:
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Not once did I have a problem with that. Not a single time.
    So what happens in that situation?
    I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

  7. #632
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    Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    Now I'm going to be told that this is insulting, I'll be threatened with an "infraction".
    Imagination runs away with you.


    Originally Posted by NIB
    It's not about jumping on the spot.

    So you never rope arrowed on a balcony, climbed the railing, died and quickloaded 10 times while trying to jump across to some rooftop and when you finally did it asked yourself if you might be the first player to discover this alternative path?

    I don't want to lose this exploring aspect. I am afraid that paths might be to obvious in NuThief.
    Of course I have done those things and I'm sure we can still do so if we need to. Its jumping for the sake of jumping is what I don't require. Exploring is a different thing.
    I never said we shouldn't have the freedom to choose. Freedom is good for the soul. All I am saying is that if they've disabled pointless jumping, then it is not really a deal-breaker for me. No rope arrow in Thief would be a deal-breaker.
    You could be right, but I don't think the paths will be obvious as we have been told we will have to concentrate and really focus and explore the environment when it comes to choosing our path.
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  8. #633
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    Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    So what happens in that situation?
    From memory, here's how I remember it working. The movement listed is in conjunction with a button press. Not all of these are mapped to the X button on the PS4 controller, but it's been two months and I'm having trouble remembering which are mapped to X, Square, or Circle.

    Moving in a direction and pressing button = swooping in direction Garrett is moving. Can change direction mid swoop to bend around corners.
    Looking at a ledge = Mantle ledge
    Looking or running at gap = Jump the gap
    Look down at ledge = Drop from ledge
    Looking or running at a railing = Vault over railing quickly
    Running at low surface (crate/table/etcetera) = Slide over quickly
    Look at rope = Jump onto rope. From there you can jump off, be it into the air, a ledge, or onto another rope.
    Look at corner = Enter peak. From there you can stand/crouch, lean out further, or swap to the opposite corner if one is near (IE. if you're peaking around a pillar.)

    Can you jump to your death? - Yes
    Is it possible to wander off ledges? - I did a few times in the bridge burning sequence
    Did you ever swoop when you meant to mantle or vice versa? - No
    Could you mantle only in predetermined spots? - Anywhere I felt I could mantle, I could mantle.

    At the end of the day, while free jumping is absent it's being replaced with a larger suite of actions. Not just swooping, but also the quick ways to cut across obstacles like sliding and vaulting that make escapes more dynamic. Both systems have their pros and cons. Whether or not you like one or the other is up to you, however I personally found the trade off here to be fine and the system comprehensive enough that I had very minimal trouble using it.
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  9. #634
    I don't know how it'll flow, although I think the assumption that you'll be swooping when you're trying to mantle all the time is almost cartoonish paranoia, but I am looking forward to the tactile feeling they're going for anyway. I don't think I'll like the game as a whole very much, though I don't think it'll be a rail shooter either, but nonetheless, more natural interaction with the geometry of the environment sounds like a worthwhile idea.

  10. #635
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    Fair shout, Astro.... and thanks for the clarifications there, MT. Sounds good to me.
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  11. #636
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    Thanks for the information, Master Taffer.

    That doesn't sound too bad after all, but I still don't see what the problem with free-movement would be.

    "Looking or running at gap = Jump the gap"
    Please don't tell me that you would jump a gap by simply running towards it. You still have to press the jump button and just would fall/drop into the gap otherwise?

  12. #637
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    Originally Posted by NIB
    That doesn't sound too bad after all, but I still don't see what the problem with free-movement would be.
    I think it has less to do with there being problems so much as it's a conscious design decision. EM is taking great lengths to characterize Garrett through gameplay. The most immediate example of this is having Garrett's hands in game, and those actually do a great deal to characterize him through his interaction with various things. These movements are another way, as through the movement system here we have Garrett moving in an agile but deliberate manner.

    How effective it ultimately is remains to be seen, by my initial impression from the playthrough is they are accomplishing this to a high degree.

    Originally Posted by NIB
    "Looking or running at gap = Jump the gap"
    Please don't tell me that you would jump a gap by simply running towards it. You still have to press the jump button and just would fall/drop into the gap otherwise?
    As I stated, all the movements are in conjunction with a button press.
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  13. #638
    Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    This equating free jumping with bunny hopping isn't just misleading and a poor attempt at misdirection, it's also one of the most unintellectual points of discussion I've ever had the misfortune of encountering in gameplay discussion. And that reflects on the people who keep bringing it up.
    Ech. I never felt that Thief was supposed to be taken with 100% seriousness. If that were the case we wouldn't have bear pits conversation. Nor Benny. Nor any of the few dozens hilarious guards remarks

    There's a little indie game called Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
    It's full of people running and hopping like idiots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNdheO5VfGA
    And look how unimmersive it is, how much people are bored and detached during gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTlWBtz62Z0
    ... Or not?

    The fact that some people like to do stupid things in games does not makes this games less immersive. Or worse. It does not decrease playability value - it increases it.
    So b1skit's argument is not only stupid, it's downright false.

    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    Can you jump to your death? - Yes
    Is it possible to wander off ledges? - I did a few times in the bridge burning sequence
    Did you ever swoop when you meant to mantle or vice versa? - No
    Could you mantle only in predetermined spots? - Anywhere I felt I could mantle, I could mantle.
    Could you jump over a trap to avoid triggering it and getting killed?

  14. #639
    Firstly, a reply to this:

    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Though you forgot a few buttons.
    No. I did not "forget". I found ways to implement every necessary function (and some unnecessary ones) on an easily-reached button without NEEDING to use every possible button the controller has available.

    I know some PC games use every button available, but it's not the usual. There are a good number of console games which never use certain buttons or functions of the controller. Look at how many PS3 games have no use for the Sixaxis motion control. A lot of melee-based action games and some shooters on consoles don't use the L3 and R3 buttons (clicking the sticks).

    If I had need of those other buttons, I would have listed them for use in the control scheme. A couple of "unused" buttons were actually mentioned when I brought up some alternative options.

    Ideally, any console game SHOULD have full controller remapping as an option. It's a rare thing for a developer to implement, unfortunately, but I wish it wasn't.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And now, on to the recently-popular "bunnyhopping" topic. Because NO, that ISN'T important. Sure, having the freedom to do so for fun is exactly that - FUN. But immersion is about more than just "if I want to jump, I can".

    I have important questions that I've asked about the contextual jumping system previously, but which haven't received a response.

    If I'm running, and I decide to jump a moment too early because I time the jump wrong, am I going to jump and miss? Or am I going to "Swoop" into the corner under the ledge I wanted to jump at? What if I'm standing next to the ledge and accidentally twitch the wrong way for some reason? Will I still jump, or will I swoop? What do I do if I'm near a ledge that's casting a shadow, and I want to swoop into the shadow, but I'm close enough to jump and climb onto the ledge?

    What if I'm wanting to try and jump across a gap that's a little too wide to jump? Can I try and fail? Or will I run up and have Garrett stop at the edge because I went the wrong way? Or will I swoop instead? And if I swoop, will I swoop off the edge? Or just stop when I reach it?

    Even the oft-used example of Assassin's Creed (which DOESN'T have contextual jumping, in spite of claims to the contrary) lets you freely jump off ledges you can't survive a jump from. It also lets you run off a ledge without jumping, when you could have made the jump, and fall to your death.

    One thing that Assassin's Creed and Thief share is the acrobatic nature of the characters. Something else Assassin's Creed and REAL Thief games share is the ability for players to make mistakes in the acrobatic sequences without those mistakes being restricted to a scripted sequence. The new game doesn't sound like it allows for that. If you can't make the jump, then it sounds like this game won't even let you try.

    And how about something that even a BAD game managed pretty well. In Brink, if there's a low arch, and you want to go over it, you can jump and climb up onto the arch. It also had sliding and vaulting and other acrobatic functions implemented well as part of either the jump or slide functions. One of the problems many console players had with the system in Brink (called SMART - smooth movement across random terrain) was that on the default controls, it was sometimes difficult to sprint without accidently vaulting or sliding because the sprint function was also tied to the automated movement system. If there was a toggle to disable that automated system and allow players to control the movement manually, many of us would have used it. Automating the jump/mantle/swoop functions all on one button is a lot like if Brink ONLY had the "SMART" button with no jump button or manual activation of sliding by hitting crouch mid-run. That of course meaning this proposed system sounds WORSE than a problematic system in a game that's widely recognised as not being very good.

    If there's a beam running above you in Assassin's Creed (or Thief), you can run up towards it, jump, and swing/climb up onto the beam mid-run. In the new game, will you be able to do that or will Garrett swoop instead? And if you're in the middle of mantling up, will there be an option to cancel out of the mantle and drop back to the ground if your pursuer starts climbing as well? And if you CAN do that, what happens if I'm in a position where I could jump up, but I want to swoop instead?

    For me, the problem is NOT that I want to bunnyhop around everywhere. The problem is that I want the FREEDOM to do WHAT I WANT TO DO. And I want to be able to EXPERIMENT instead of having my path railroaded by what the developers and the game engine THINK I'm trying to do.

  15. #640
    These bunny hopping arguments are insulting. The importance of freeform movement within the Thief series should not have to be explained to anyone, least of all the developers at EM.

    They have lost this long time fan and community member due to their complete blindness.

    I wish EM the best of luck, but I have no interest in this game at all. From what they have shown us, they have hindered Thief with a good majority of the things I hate in modern games.

    They had a chance to stand apart and be different. It's a shame.

  16. #641
    Why try to be different when you can put all the bad stuff brought by modern game design in your product?

  17. #642
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    From memory, here's how I remember it working. The movement listed is in conjunction with a button press. Not all of these are mapped to the X button on the PS4 controller, but it's been two months and I'm having trouble remembering which are mapped to X, Square, or Circle.

    Moving in a direction and pressing button = swooping in direction Garrett is moving. Can change direction mid swoop to bend around corners.
    Looking at a ledge = Mantle ledge
    Looking or running at gap = Jump the gap
    Look down at ledge = Drop from ledge
    Looking or running at a railing = Vault over railing quickly
    Running at low surface (crate/table/etcetera) = Slide over quickly
    Look at rope = Jump onto rope. From there you can jump off, be it into the air, a ledge, or onto another rope.
    Look at corner = Enter peak. From there you can stand/crouch, lean out further, or swap to the opposite corner if one is near (IE. if you're peaking around a pillar.)

    Can you jump to your death? - Yes
    Is it possible to wander off ledges? - I did a few times in the bridge burning sequence
    Did you ever swoop when you meant to mantle or vice versa? - No
    Could you mantle only in predetermined spots? - Anywhere I felt I could mantle, I could mantle.

    At the end of the day, while free jumping is absent it's being replaced with a larger suite of actions. Not just swooping, but also the quick ways to cut across obstacles like sliding and vaulting that make escapes more dynamic. Both systems have their pros and cons. Whether or not you like one or the other is up to you, however I personally found the trade off here to be fine and the system comprehensive enough that I had very minimal trouble using it.
    As far as contextual movement mechanics go in the industry, this is pretty good, as long as all places really ARE covered and prompts are never needed. Perhaps we have overreacted a touch but we should still be able to jump freely as standard. It's immersion breaking not being able to do so.
    Freedom to perform basic movement actions at any time is a must.

  18. #643
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    I have a feeling I really should have posted that sooner, guys. Apologies for how tardy it was.
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  19. #644
    Was just watching a playthrough online and a guy peeked over the edge of a ledge while in the middle of the ledge (no wall, corner or crate to engage NuPeek). I do this, too. Will we be able to in new Thief? I'm guessing not, but thought I'd check and mention in case a solution can be devised. Maybe EM built it so Garrett auto-leans with sticky feet before before we're allowed to fall when on a ledge or something.

  20. #645
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    If one were infused with my intelligence, it would be quite clear that being able to free jump is not even .0000000001% connected to immersion. That's why I seldom comment on this subject.

    I'll try, however, once again, to explain. See, immersion is in the hands of the developers, not the player. It is up to the developers to create immersion. Without a game, there cannot even be a discussion of immersion. A game must exist for immersion to happen or to not happen, therefore, immersion is 100% in the devs hands.

    Next, lets assume that bunny hopping completely ruins immersion. It's 100% the player's fault if immersion is ruined, seeing the devs cannot control how much you push the space bar. If I choose to run in circles for 30 minutes, immersion is ruined. But the devs cannot control me from making circles with my joystick for 30 minutes.

    Let's take it a bit further. I'm sure immersion would be ruined if I purposely cut power to my console every 20 minutes, forcing me to restart, losing all my progress. But that's in my hands. If I choose to be a moron, you really can't do too much about it.

    WAIT! video game devs think they can. It's all about control. They're basically trying to idiot-proof games. Simplifying it as much as possible in an attempt to force immersion rather than trying to address what creates immersion in the first place.

    Once again, I attribute this to lazy programming. Oh well, I'll have to wait until February to see if I'm totally wrong. But as you all should know, I have only been wrong once in my entire 2 years here. And that one time I was wrong was when I thought I was wrong.

  21. #646
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    Why is there a need to free jump when you can jump whenever you need to jump?

  22. #647
    Originally Posted by HERESY
    Why is there a need to free jump when you can jump whenever you need to jump?
    My question for you, taffer, is: do you really think the developers are so omniscient, that they are able to predict EVERY player's actions and intentions and thus are able to produce a game that could envelop all of those possibilities? Not only that, which is for me a very big issue, to be constrained by a (or two or three) path laid out in front of me, but also, the numerous conflicts which may arise from this oversimplification? For example: what if I am in front of a chasm, looking at it, and I decide to not jump, but instead, move to the side, swoop, if you must, wouldn't the game wrongfully interpret my intentions, and present to me, a beautifully animated jump, with no possibilities of falling?
    (yes, I read Master Taffer's post about how the game NEVER gets it wrong, but I'm just not convinced and that is because it simply, theoretically (because I haven't played the game myself and blablabla), doesn't make sense, and it sounds too good to be true).

    In my opinion, your faith is refreshing, but I think it is actually, a bit naïve of you.

    Once again, and that is for everyone else, especially the ones offended (me included) by the course this discussion always manages to take, remember: It's is easier to attack a human figure made of straw, rather than a living, pulsing, able to defend itself one, that so conveniently is being ignored here. For further clarification, please refer to this.

  23. #648
    Heresy, I look forward to playing the game and finding locations where I want to jump, sometimes repeatedly as I maybe get a little higher and higher each time on an incline or something (as just one example), to reach Garrett's limits of exploration and overcoming obstacles, but can't. And reporting back to here. Hopefully, I come back empty-handed. Maybe EM has more realistic climbing (not parkour) to allow slow, arduous climbs in moments like the above, like some RPGs have (I think Oblivion and/or Morrowind did); so we don't have to hop like a pogo stick in exploration moments like this, and without invisible walls preventing exploration that should be possible. Doubtful, but possible, I suppose.

    Anyways, if you never jumped in Thief except to go across gaps and onto/off of ropes, and can't imagine any scenarios where contextual jumping might be limiting to level design and gameplay (e.g., floor puzzles, moss-to-moss jumps, attract attention), or if you don't see the impacts as a bad thing, that's great.

    PS: I would like to extend an olive branch to EM. How can we help? Hehe

  24. #649
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    Need, need, need. Everyone's so needy. Myself included.

    When developers start to think, hey, the players don't need to go to that room, so why even waste our time creating a room over there? Just slap a JPEG of a door and call it good.

    When developers start to think, hey, you don't need to scale the side of that building because there's nothing on the roof, your goal is over there. Let's make that area off limits, slap a JPEG of a wall there and then guide the players down that path because that's where we spent 1.2 million $$$ creating a cool barn filled with cool stuff.

    When devs start to think, hey, you don't need to explore that spooky looking mansion over there because your goal is in the graveyard behind the spooky mansion, so let's just slap an image of a mansion in that non-active zone and force the player to walk this way to get to the graveyard.

    What you get in the end is a lazy, arrogantly designed, unimmersive, sloppy, amateur, out of touch, low bar, boring, condescending, watered down (and a few other adjectives I'm too lazy to find in my thesaurus) game.

    It's the 21st century way of design where the developers want to play the game for you by removing all of the player's input. I've seen it coming for years. 10 years from now, a video game will be 2 hours of gameplay and 8 hours of cutscenes. Mark my words.

  25. #650
    I need more cowbell in this game!

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