Thread: Game Mechanics - Contextual jumping, leaning, swooping and mantling - All Discussion

Game Mechanics - Contextual jumping, leaning, swooping and mantling - All Discussion

  1. #451
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Sigh, of course there has to be restrictions and rules. Achieving as much freedom as realistically possible with believable mechanics is ideal and just one thing Looking Glass and it's offspring went for.

    Player freedom is an "empty, vapid point"? You're rediculous. OK, Thief should be completely on rails including movement and you shoot people with a bow. Basically Virtua Cop: Thief edition, as Alex suggested.
    "It's not freedom so it's bad" is an empty, vapid point. It should have systems which are conducive to being cohesive, interesting and gratifying, not just as free as possible. It's realistic, believable and free that a master thief would wear padded shoes rather than tap shoes, but it would destroy the tense risk/reward dynamic when you're trying to knock a guard out.

    You don't need a game that's completely on rails any more than you need a game that has no-clip and god-mode enabled.



    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    But what are the benefits to restricting jumping?
    I didn't say restricted jumping is a good idea, I just said that I'm not completely against contextual prompts if they're implemented well like in Dishonored. In that case, though, you get more fluid animations, and you can make it so the contextual prompts don't pop up on your screen, but they're still there.

  2. #452
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    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    But what are the benefits to restricting jumping?
    When you have decided to maximize visual quality of animations, but lack the skill or dedication to pursue that goal, you'll need to remove as many variables from the equation as possible. You remove all other instances of a certain action other than exclusively pre-programmed ones, so that you only need one simple animation instead of a dynamic system that changes animations based on circumstances. So restricted jumping benefits lazy programmers in the expense of the player's freedom. For the game it only has negative consequences. It helps the developers because they can still achieve maximum visual quality for the animations of those actions, without actually putting any effort into it.

    So the short answer is... "Dragon's Lair".

  3. #453
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    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    But what are the benefits to restricting jumping?
    You dont accidentally screw up the story/mission by bypassing the railroaded story through cutscene triggers by exploration? Game: The Movie

  4. #454
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    Yet it's still restrictive.

    Simply put, no matter how 'next-gen' this contextual jumping/swooping is, it shares the same button, meaning there is likely to be a time when I want to jump, but instead swoop, or want to swoop, yet instead jump.
    .
    But there are not times when you will want to swoop when you can jump or jump when you can swoop. You jump if you want to climb a wall, or bridge a gap. You swoop when you want to move between cover. Times when you want to jump and times when you want to swoop are mutually exclusive.

    Yes, it is still restrictive, but that's like saying you shouldn't wear a watch because it restricts the movement of your wrist- you're right, it does, but the effect is so small that it hardly matters and is unnoticeable.

  5. #455
    Originally Posted by Astro
    "It's not freedom so it's bad" is an empty, vapid point.
    In this context it very much is a valid point, it is the whole point. I didn't say that applies to every aspect of the game, we are (or were, as of this post I'm done with you) discussing jumping.

    I don't want the freedom to turn into an invincible eagle or to engage in sex with pigs QTE's. I want the freedom to perform basic actions when I please and not have the developers control when I can jump or swoop.
    This change is a devolution of classic design in favor of repetitive animations and development shortcutting, or immersion apparently.

    I didn't say restricted jumping is a good idea, I just said that I'm not completely against contextual prompts if they're implemented well like in Dishonored. In that case, though, you get more fluid animations, and you can make it so the contextual prompts don't pop up on your screen, but they're still there.
    Contextual prompting is not an issue at all if it can be disabled and should be included to aid newcomers to the game as it's inclusion causes no harm if it can be disabled. That is not what the majority here is outraged about.

  6. #456
    Jumping whenever you want to = not immersive

    A buttom prompt appearing on your screen telling you when and where you can jump = IMMERSIVE AS !

  7. #457
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    I wonder if I will feel more immersed in the game when I try to decapitate a sleeping servant and I'm not even allowed to draw my sword in that particular room???

  8. #458
    Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    This is utter rubbish.

    A hundred who will jump down the street like a maniac?

    So all the games that have free jumping have hundreds of people ruining the game for themselves by doing this?

    You really haven't thought this through, have you?

    This line of reasoning is total nonsense.

    Will we be able to fire 10 arrows in a row at the ground? Will we be able to spin on the spot? Will we be able to look up, then down, then up, ad nausem?

    Yes.

    Being able to do silly stuff in the game is natural.
    I know, I'm not saying it's not. My point was that the detail he wanted to go into in jumping over a body JUST for the sake of immersion is nonsensical BECAUSE of the naturally immersion breaking things that come with playing a game, like you listed. If that is the reason he wanted non-contextual jumping EM may as well introduce restrictions on how far you can look without deliberately turning your character around as well, but that would just be stupid. Being able to do sill stuff in games IS quite natural, which is why Majistraal's desire to be able to jump over bodies for the sake of immersion is so ludicrous. THAT was my point.

  9. #459
    Originally Posted by CyberP
    In this context it very much is a valid point, it is the whole point. I didn't say that applies to every aspect of the game, we are (or were, as of this post I'm done with you) discussing jumping.

    Contextual prompting is not an issue at all if it can be disabled and should be included to aid newcomers to the game as it's inclusion causes no harm if it can be disabled. That is not what the majority here is outraged about.
    If it's a specific context and a specific application you're talking about, maybe you can criticize in a less nebulous way than "it restricts player freedom so it's bad", e.g., what about restricting player freedom in this context and application is bad?

    Thief will most likely just do what Dishonored did, maybe without the ability to turn the prompt off (which would be annoying but otherwise fine). It's the assumption that you'll be told to jump once each mission that's making people angry, but I don't know why anyone would make this assumption.

  10. #460
    I think some of you are missing the point us anti-contextual folks are making......

    Let's step through an example.

    A crate sits in the middle of a room. When you get close enough to this crate, a picture comes on the screen showing you jumping the crate(often paired with an alternative action on a different button). Press X and you jump it.

    Brilliant. All with us?! OK lets continue.......

    Take 2 steps back, what happens?! Press X and you swoop into the crate. (According to B1skit)

    So without some sort of on screen prompt, you don't know if you're jumping or swooping.

    That's immersion breaking. Maybe those who played the game could let us know how they knew whether a jump or a swoop was coming after the button press?!

  11. #461
    Originally Posted by Knox140
    but the effect is so small that it hardly matters and is unnoticeable.
    We shall see about that. I'd lay down the contents of my bank account right now wagering it will very much be an issue.

    Originally Posted by Binge_Eating
    I think some of you are missing the point us anti-contextual folks are making......

    Let's step through an example.

    A crate sits in the middle of a room. When you get close enough to this crate, a picture comes on the screen showing you jumping the crate(often paired with an alternative action on a different button). Press X and you jump it.

    Brilliant. All with us?! OK lets continue.......

    Take 2 steps back, what happens?! Press X and you swoop into the crate. (According to B1skit)

    So without some sort of on screen prompt, you don't know if you're jumping or swooping.

    That's immersion breaking. Maybe those who played the game could let us know how they knew whether a jump or a swoop was coming after the button press?!
    Yes, this is yet another good argument against it, that we will have to rely on prompts. I didn't consider that, and it just makes things worse. Prompting is now recognized an issue too.

  12. #462
    Originally Posted by Binge_Eating
    Let's step through an example.

    A crate sits in the middle of a room. When you get close enough to this crate, a picture comes on the screen showing you jumping the crate(often paired with an alternative action on a different button). Press X and you jump it.

    Brilliant. All with us?! OK lets continue.......

    Take 2 steps back, what happens?! Press X and you swoop into the crate. (According to B1skit)

    So without some sort of on screen prompt, you don't know if you're jumping or swooping.

    That's immersion breaking. Maybe those who played the game could let us know how they knew whether a jump or a swoop was coming after the button press?!
    Simply not true. Please, fact check before jumping to the worst possible conclusions guys

    If you check the the gameplay footage (that has been available for months) you'll see this is categorically not an issue

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdN...uAQcDx&index=2

    1:51 - Garrett swoops contextually - There is no icon.

    1:52 - Garrett climbs the pillar contextually - There is no icon.

    1:38 - Garrett swoops contextually - There is no icon.

    2:41 - Garrett peeks from behind a pillar contextually - There is no icon.

    3:02 - Garrett climbs a ledge contextually - There is no icon.

    And so on.

    There are many different gameplay demo's available, check out our playlist of them here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...R479UAImuAQcDx

  13. #463
    Originally Posted by b1skit
    Simply not true. Please, fact check before jumping to the worst possible conclusions guys

    If you check the the gameplay footage (that has been available for months) you'll see this is categorically not an issue

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdN...uAQcDx&index=2

    1:51 - Garrett swoops contextually - There is no icon.

    1:52 - Garrett climbs the pillar contextually - There is no icon.

    1:38 - Garrett swoops contextually - There is no icon.

    2:41 - Garrett peeks from behind a pillar contextually - There is no icon.

    3:02 - Garrett climbs a ledge contextually - There is no icon.

    And so on.

    There are many different gameplay demo's available, check out our playlist of them here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...R479UAImuAQcDx
    I don't think he was complaining about on-screen prompts, those can be disabled. I think he is more concerned that we won't be able to do all these actions smoothly without them.

  14. #464
    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    I don't think he was complaining about on-screen prompts, those can be disabled. I think he is more concerned that we won't be able to do all these actions smoothly without them.
    Either way, the devs have apparently made up thier mind. I'll save true judgement for the final product. For now, more speculation: We will surely have to rely on prompts to know which action we are about to perform: Jump, swoop or mantle. Sure, it may be obvious and fluid in the game which action will be performed, but there will also be moments where I want to jump yet swoop or vice versa, again i'd wager.

    We shall see come release.

  15. #465
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    Originally Posted by b1skit
    Anybody claiming the game will somehow be ruined because you can't free jump, when there is no reason to be jumping, would have to agree that Gran Tourismo is ruined because you can't choose to pop the trunk - right? No, of course not.
    This is the most painfully idiotic analogy I've seen in a good long while.

    Originally Posted by b1skit
    So, I hear you asking, what happens when you DO press the jump button, but there is nothing to jump on?

    You SWOOP!

    It's AWESOME
    Press A for AWESOME!

  16. #466
    Originally Posted by InDIGnation
    I don't think he was complaining about on-screen prompts, those can be disabled. I think he is more concerned that we won't be able to do all these actions smoothly without them.
    ... And that we won't always be able to predict which action the game will do (jump vs. swoop).
    ... And that we won't always be able to do the action we want to do because the game will have sometimes decided for us to do the one we don't want to do.

  17. #467
    Originally Posted by DarknessFalls
    ... And that we won't always be able to predict which action the game will do (jump vs. swoop).
    ... And that we won't always be able to do the action we want to do because the game will have sometimes decided for us to do the one we don't want to do.
    That's what I meant. Sorry for the bad wording.

    To me, it just seems to be a poor solution to a negligible problem. Like how the black shroud is supposed to compensate for moving the light gem off to the corner; why not just keep it in the centre?

  18. #468
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    It wouldn't make sense for Garret to randomly swing his weapon and shoot arrows everywhere.
    So we'll be restricting the use of his weapons to only scripted occasions.

    It wouldn't make sense for Garret to randomly walk in circles all the time.
    So we'll be restricting his movement to predetermined paths

    It wouldn't make sense for Garret to pick up and throw random stuff around.
    So we'll be restricting pick up to specific items

    10/10 game guys.

    Better than every other stealth game and much better than those silly thief games where they gave you freedom. Horrible horrible freedom.

  19. #469
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    Originally Posted by b1skit
    1:51 - Garrett swoops contextually - There is no icon.

    1:52 - Garrett climbs the pillar contextually - There is no icon.

    1:38 - Garrett swoops contextually - There is no icon.

    2:41 - Garrett peeks from behind a pillar contextually - There is no icon.

    3:02 - Garrett climbs a ledge contextually - There is no icon.
    I can't believe the audacity of listing all of these things as single-button contextual pre-animated actions, and actually trying to present it in a positive context. The fact that there is no icon is not a positive thing, because what that absent icon would work as a prompt for is exactly what is being criticized as an objectively negative downgrade.

    Garrett swoops contextually. ...When you're pressing the jump button. <-What part of "jump" did the game not understand?

    Garrett climbs contextually. ...When you're pressing the jump button. <-Climbing was done using the jump button, and it makes sense. Though I personally would like interactions with the Claw to be dynamic and player-controlled manually.

    Garrett peeks from behind pillar contextually. ...When you're pressing the jump button <- WTF?

    Garrett jumps forward over a gap contextually. ...When you only press the jump button. <- What's this? I don't recall pressing forward. I commanded the character to jump in place by pressing the jump button.

    Garrett sits still contextually. ...When you're pressing the jump button. <-Again, what part of "jump" am I not being clear about?

    I'm beginning to wonder what this secret ingame feature is... You know... the one that the extra button is being reserved for. This contextuality frees at least two new buttons from use on the 16 that the console controller has. Focus is being introduced, so that takes one of those buttons. But what is the other for? Which new feature is so important that it needs a whole new button that needs to be mapped to that specific feature only so that it can be accessed immediately at all times? ...Mark&Execute?

    I mean, not only did Deadly Shadows remove or merge absolutely no essential control feature as it was developed for the limited buttons of a console controller, it actually added three features. It separated "Use object" and "Use item" to different buttons, it added the fall-flattening, and silent creep. Thief 4 is filing all sorts of features under the same button, but for what purpose?

  20. #470
    Yeah the guys above me have it right. I'm not talking about the icon on screen. But there must have been some queue as to what was coming next. Maybe the hands raise a little more when you can jump or something. I'll rewatch the video and see if I can spot it.

  21. #471
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    I can't believe the audacity of listing all of these things as single-button contextual pre-animated actions, and actually trying to present it in a positive context.
    If this is true, it's probably not audacity. Try desperation.

    Posted by thiefinthedark at TTLG:

    "According to the grapevine, the release date is so soon because they've been given an ultimatum from Square Enix and were denied any further extensions on development time or funding...

    ...I suggest you take that with as much salt as you feel necessary, because I can't provide any hard sources. This is coming from a very old friend who has contacts currently employed at Eidos Montreal.

    These people aren't happy to be working on this project since the industry in Canada is going to pot, and it's hard enough to find work right now without having the biggest title on your resume be a trainwreck so huge that it killed a studio."

  22. #472
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    Too funny.
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    You are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this...

  23. #473
    I don't think he was trying to be funny.

  24. #474
    I wasn't, but at this point I'm detached enough that I don't mind people getting some unintended amusement from my posts.

  25. #475
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    Originally Posted by Maijstral
    I don't mind people getting some unintended amusement from my posts.
    Good to hear. A day without laughter is a day wasted.
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