Thread: "Garrett is now doing more action moves."

"Garrett is now doing more action moves."

  1. #51
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    Originally Posted by Hamadriyad
    Now you are striking my signature. Good, very intelligent of you.
    Thanks. I do make it a point to take notice of pseudo-intellectual gibberish and mock it as a quick way to dispense with what no doubt would otherwise be a drawn out episode of "suffering... gladly".

    So, thanks and thanks again.

  2. #52
    Okay bare with me but a game like " Spec Ops : The line " was advertised as a hard core shooting game with big emphasis on Call of Duty etc...

    But was somthing completely different , with the best story line of a shooter i ever played, so i'm hoping Eidos are doing the same they are reeling in the Dishonored and the Assasins fans and giving them a lecture in stealthy game play.

    Becouse one of the devolepers must have stuck his head on this forum to have a look.

  3. #53
    Originally Posted by Hamadriyad
    Now you are striking my signature. Good, very intelligent of you.
    Trolls can be reported by clicking the /!\ thingy on the upper right area of their post.

    Just a reminder.

  4. #54
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    Originally Posted by wdogify
    I like the comments on this article:

    http://www.vg247.com/2013/03/14/thie...-action-focus/

    "modern audience" "action moves", that's really bad. Garrett is a thief, not a fighter, not a good climber that can go everywhere, I don't want another altair or ezio. If I want that, I just play assassin's creed,not thief.
    I especially enjoyed this line
    Even flaws and writer eccentricities can make something unique, but we’re not even allowed those.
    Really though, nobody knows what it will turn out like. I do wonder where the marketing dep. gets their ideas from sometimes when they decide the public won't go for a certain thing. So if Garrett looked like he did on the cover of TDP, would their sales be drastically different? That seems to be the essence of the article.

    I guess it comes down to whether the developer is brave enough to set new trends and open people to things they didn't know they liked, or if they just ride on the existing trends for a safe-bet that the game will sell more that way.

    I know I have more admiration for honest marketing that sells the game on its unique traits rather than the recognisable ones, but on the other hand can't entirely blame them for going the safe route. At some point you have to not pretend the game isn't what it is and be willing to present the unique Thief flavour. Nobody likes being fooled into buying something, and the audience for what you're really selling may be bigger than you anticipated.

    Originally Posted by Nightwynd
    Yeah, because everything that we're told so far basically points out in the direction of Thief having "a major element of hack and slash"! I mean, seriously, these kind of uninformed hyperboles have to go, they do nothing but spread misinformation and vitriol, both of which have been more than abundant on this forum already.
    I just take it as a declaration of what one doesn't want to see; a challenge to prove them wrong.

  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by Lineplx
    Okay bare with me but a game like " Spec Ops : The line " was advertised as a hard core shooting game with big emphasis on Call of Duty etc...

    But was somthing completely different , with the best story line of a shooter i ever played, so i'm hoping Eidos are doing the same they are reeling in the Dishonored and the Assasins fans and giving them a lecture in stealthy game play.

    Becouse one of the devolepers must have stuck his head on this forum to have a look.
    Funny thing that; if my eyes have crossed that game's title before, I'm not aware of it; it doesn't pass my 'COD-like filter'. What you just said about the game sold it to me better than the game's actual marketing did.

  6. #56
    Originally Posted by Blue Sky
    Yeah... Look at the trailers and cutscenes for The Dark Project and see just how many explosions / sword fights / chasing there is.
    Ask and you shall receive.

    Earliest Trailer for The Dark Project: E3 1997

    Chasing, arrows, and yes, explosions.

    Anyone who's played it knows that this is NOT in any way representative of the experience in Thief, yet it's how Looking Glass chose to market it. Just like Arkane with Dishonored.

    BONUS: Trailer 2-Spring 1998

    Chasing, swordfights, and...wait for it...explosions!

    I have examples. It isn't "blind faith." This is the only way to market; stealth doesn't sell, but that doesn't mean the game won't be about stealth.

    TL/DR: Watch the videos! Thief was marketed with action sequences, despite being THE quintessential stealth game.
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  7. #57
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    Originally Posted by Nightwynd
    Yeah, because everything that we're told so far basically points out in the direction of Thief having "a major element of hack and slash"! I mean, seriously, these kind of uninformed hyperboles have to go, they do nothing but spread misinformation and vitriol, both of which have been more than abundant on this forum already.
    When you have so many references to action in the videos of the making of Thief, it doesn't leave much room for anything else. When you hear of a TV show being "action packed", it doesn't really give you any thoughts that it might be a full hour of watching fish swimming peacefully in an aquarium, you'd probably write a letter of complaint to the TV station for falsely advertising the show if it was.

    TDP, TMA and TDS could never be considered action games, they were slow paced and calm. That was the original lure of the game, it was different, you could almost call it a puzzle game using realistic scenarios as puzzles that have more than one solution. Solve the puzzle in your own time, using as much time as you need to identify a possible solution. Unless you make a royal screw up, you are not up against the clock with multiple enemies looking to make a pincushion out of you.

    Making the presumption that it's going to be more of an action game is quite justified IMO.
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  8. #58
    The idea of Garrett performing pre - recorded 'pseudo cinematic' action moves ( like some of those 'take downs' we saw in Dues Ex Human Revolution ) fills me with the deepest dread.

    Then to say...... "we want to make Thief more console user friendly"... well.......... that's antithetical to the the very heart and essence of the series.
    "Why isn’t the game designed as a Thief game first, but with a casual mode option if you think its too difficult?"

  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    I am happy to correct them. This is the only way to market; stealth doesn't sell, but that doesn't mean the game won't be about stealth.
    I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of stealth franchises that sell well. It's just extremely hard to MARKET stealth as it tends to be slow and visually uninteresting. It's engaging in practice, not so much as a passive observer.
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  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of stealth franchises that sell well. It's just extremely hard to MARKET stealth as it tends to be slow and visually uninteresting. It's engaging in practice, not so much as a passive observer.
    I should've worded that better, because that's what I meant. Showing a trailer of Garrett sitting in a shadow for 10 minutes studying patrol routes before making his move doesn't market a game very well, despite being an awesomely tense 10 minutes for the player.
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  11. #61
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    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    I have examples. It isn't "blind faith." This is the only way to market; stealth doesn't sell,
    When was that theory tested?

    Incidentally, I don't recall Thief being a blockbuster seller. Correct me if i'm wrong.

  12. #62
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    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    I should've worded that better, because that's what I meant. Showing a trailer of Garrett sitting in a shadow for 10 minutes studying patrol routes before making his move doesn't market a game very well, despite being an awesomely tense 10 minutes for the player.
    Much like adaptive playstyles or freedom of player choice, it's difficult to communicate the experience in an exciting way to the audience via trailer.
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  13. #63
    Originally Posted by Master Taffer
    I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of stealth franchises that sell well. It's just extremely hard to MARKET stealth as it tends to be slow and visually uninteresting. It's engaging in practice, not so much as a passive observer.
    Well, maybe EM will surprise us. I hope they do.

    Still, the flurry of ACTION ACTION ACTION that they're showcasing doesn't really give us much confidence.

    Although I would have to disagree about stealth games being visually uninteresting. They could have at least talked about the dynamics of light and shadow, even from a purely visual perspective. Visual contrast is what gave Thief 1, 2, and 3 their visual identity.

    Remember the giant tree in the final mission of TDP? Or the relentless anti-life visuals of Soulforge? Constantine's mansion stayed visually interesting at all times. The problem with what we see in the new screenshots is that everything seems to be washed out, blending into each other. There's simply too much STUFF, that we can't focus on specific things, and that's the underlying problem that the baby-blue glow of Focus Mode won't fix. Less is more. I'm seeing a lot of clutter in the visuals.

  14. #64
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    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    stealth doesn't sell, but that doesn't mean the game won't be about stealth.
    Stealth is the biggest thing going right now.

    So now is the time to be proud to own the title and not it up. But instead with every new utterance we are being told, not just shown, how this classic franchise is being reborn for couchgunners.

    It deserves an outcry. Not to be ignored and glossed over as if it isn't being presented quite strikingly in the manner of an "action moves" overhaul.

  15. #65
    Is everyone going to ignore the marketing on the cherished original Thief, just so they can keep complaining?

    Even Thief was sold with explosions, fights, and chases. That this is the marketing for the new game is absolutely no reason to panic.
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  16. #66
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    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    I should've worded that better, because that's what I meant. Showing a trailer of Garrett sitting in a shadow for 10 minutes studying patrol routes before making his move doesn't market a game very well, despite being an awesomely tense 10 minutes for the player.
    I figured that's what you meant. Just trying to help you out, good sir.
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  17. #67
    Hey guys, this might help clarify some of the questions around Garrett's design that came up since yesterdays Game Informer video. Check it out!

    http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Going-Rogue

  18. #68
    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    Is everyone going to ignore the marketing on the cherished original Thief, just so they can keep complaining?

    Even Thief was sold with explosions, fights, and chases. That this is the marketing for the new game is absolutely no reason to panic.


    There are explosions and chases. But the whole point of this trailer was that Garrett always did his thing from the shadows, and that getting into a melee brawl was an extremely bad idea. For the first half of the trailer, there's little, if any music. Midway through the video, the music isn't raging very loudly, it emphasizes that the game is generally quiet. If the trailer had been composed ENTIRELY of exposions and sword fights and violence, then it could, in a way, be considered a lie.

  19. #69
    Originally Posted by Chilliwack


    There are explosions and chases. But the whole point of this trailer was that Garrett always did his thing from the shadows, and that getting into a melee brawl was an extremely bad idea. Midway through the video, the music isn't raging very loudly, it emphasizes that the game is generally quiet. If the trailer had been composed ENTIRELY of exposions and sword fights and violence, then it could, in a way, be considered a lie.
    That trailer is fanmade, I think. The two I posted were from LGS' actual marketing in 1997 and 1998.
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  20. #70
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    In a trailer, right. But we haven't been watching trailers. No trailers at all. We've been watching sit-down interviews with those in charge of the production at the top level. We've been reading what they want us to read.

    And they are saying things that are simply alarming.

    And the apologists are pretending they have some other information that assures them otherwise.

  21. #71
    Originally Posted by b1skit
    Hey guys, this might help clarify some of the questions around Garrett's design that came up since yesterdays Game Informer video. Check it out!

    http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Going-Rogue
    Huh.

    That's actually a little reassuring. Not VERY, but it's reassuring. I still think Garrett looks a bit too "modernly" gothic, but the comments about how you meant a different thing when you said mainstream, that gives a bit of hope. Language barriers cause all sorts of misunderstandings.

    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    That trailer is fanmade, I think. The two I posted were from LGS' actual marketing in 1997 and 1998.
    I remember watching this specific trailer in 1998, and I believe it was from the official Thief website... you know, the one that constantly blared that awful music from the Thieves' Guild casino area?

    So I'm ALMOST entirely certain this was official.

  22. #72
    What EM doesn't understand is the original Thief games were NOT created for a mainstream audience. FPS games like Quake and Doom dominated the market and Looking Glass decided to make a game that was the complete opposite. "No rocket launchers...No bio-armor." If EM's intention is to cater to the mainstream audience then you can expect everything "mainstream" to be included.

    Watching old TDP trailers, a stealth game would have been the last type of game I would have guessed it to be. All the trailers show Garrett sword fighting, blowing stuff up, and killing people. I am concerned about the more "action moves," but it might just a tactic to get the gamer hooked, then convert them to a stealth lover.

    edit: Woops somehow missed the conversations earlier before this post (guess cause they were minutes before lol) -- sorry for the repeat

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    Is everyone going to ignore the marketing on the cherished original Thief, just so they can keep complaining?

    Even Thief was sold with explosions, fights, and chases. That this is the marketing for the new game is absolutely no reason to panic.
    Trailers will always be full of that kind of stuff, yes, regardless of the actual contents of the game. A trailer only has a couple minutes to grab an unfamiliar audience's attention, and so it naturally deviates to the most basic methods of appeal. Right now, we're getting a lot more than minutes -- we're getting reams of introductory footage and information, stretched out over a period of weeks, and at least part of it should be about the things that matter to existing fans, if there's any good news to give them. Cantin seems to think good news is incoming -- hopefully he's right. At least now we know that you aren't required to kill anybody. Assurance that the game is being designed so that you can play, and play well, without Focus, navigational beacons, and the other doodads would be a nice next step. Eventually, a gameplay video of the initiation and action of a combat sequence would help. If the way in which you can momentarily stun a guard and run away, sans Focus, plays right, it would help assuage the concern about the Guy Ritchie combat system.

    Incidentally, the gothic/goth/etc. debate on the webpage somebody linked to is reaching heights of absurdity. Let's keep the Gothic Victorian architecture, the stylized cutscenes, and the foreboding shadows, and lose the eye makeup. God knows why they wanted to give him black nails and eye shadow in the first place, but hopefully the whole idea will vanish by the release date.
    But I'm right.

  24. #74

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    Originally Posted by Lord Karn
    :/ gameplay should never be ruined on the primary system for the sake of gameplay on the lesser system, quite frankly i don't care if console gamers don't enjoy a game like thief in the same way i don't care if console gamers enjoy starcraft II. Neither are meant for the console and both are designed for a slower pace to think out and puzzle out what to do, i loved the fact that i could spend an hour plus exploring a thief level, what i loved even more? i didn't even notice an hour had passed because it was that engaging.
    very well stated

  25. #75
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    Originally Posted by tarvis79
    That trailer is fanmade, I think. The two I posted were from LGS' actual marketing in 1997 and 1998.
    I'm afraid it's not fanmade, actually.

    The "Tools of the Trade" trailer is probably the single best Thief trailer in the franchise's history because it properly conveyed the gameplay mechanics in the establishing moments. You can view the entire trailer in an arching path in clear steps.

    1. Set tone
    2. Convey gameplay
    3. Present challenge
    4. ACTION AND EXCITEMENT


    It's very well done, but the context of the period is also important. The reason the trailer could get away with that is at the time of 1998, stealth was a completely foreign concept to most of the gaming population. It existed in games prior going all the way back to 005 in 1981, but it wasn't a big selling point. Looking Glass Studios was trying something really bold at the time and was the first of a three punch combo of Thief, Metal Gear Solid, and Tenchu in that year. The late 90s and early 2000s were the stealth gaming renaissance in a way.

    The market is a little different now. Stealth is a popular subgenre, but the heaviest hitters are games like Metal Gear Solid that have an action component to them. Players want to feel empowered in some way, and what defines empowerment in the stealth franchise varies from person to person. Because of that variety perception you need to be able ot properly convey some range in excitement for your game in the current climate. There's also an element of being able to provide some attention grabbing spectacle, and two to three minute trailers of a guy quietly skulking in the shadows doesn't do it. "Tools of the Trade" may work in todays market, I don't know. But we should not fault Eidos Montreal if they play it safe with their marketing.
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