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Thread: Lara & Sam! | please read OP before posting!

  1. #1951
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    "considering" and "part of me would love to" sounds pretty much the same to me. both indicate that there was some thoughts about it. non of them say its a solid fact or a "must do".

    regarding flirting;
    if lara would flirt with both sexes i would feel a bit confused. she doesnt make this impression she is unsure about things. even if it would work it still would confuse people or even start an uproar like many ME fans did with the crappy ending of ME3. yes, i know its not the same to compare an ending with an emotion. its just to avoid an controversy.

    and having some minor RPG element would not harm the game. AoD (as i pointed out earlier) had these options to choose a path lara should take like what she should say. damn, even when you say the wrong thing lara died.
    so it can be implemented and players wont have a problem with the outcome since they can decide what lara should do.

    i can understand that some dont want lara to have someone. that sam will be a burden and all that. but what about sarah connor in terminator 1? was she confident? did she kick ass? NO. she was scared, clueless and had dint fight.
    but then in part 2 she was more confident, stronger and kicked ass. so why coulndt it work out in the next title of TR? im not saying she will be following lara every step of the way and shoot up the neighborhood with some duke nukem remarks but at least she can defend her self.

    as i have said a long time ago, sam doesnt have to be next to lara. she can be in a village or a town and over radio talking to lara. just like zip and allistor in legend.
    she can help lara to solve a puzzle or guide her. maybe even play as sam for a short time like her finding a clue in a book or map or what ever to help lara. like guiding lara threw a maze.
    or, since sam is smaller build then lara, she could squeeze threw narrow gabs or small holes. also she would be pretty good to be very stealthy

    this way, a relationship could build up between them. everyone needs someone at some stage. doesnt matter now if its a good friend or a lover. lara deserves a person she can trust. sam is for sure the person she does. doesnt matter now if good friends or more.
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  2. #1952
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    sorry for the double post. had some error wile posting
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  3. #1953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    "considering" and "part of me would love to" sounds pretty much the same to me. both indicate that there was some thoughts about it. non of them say its a solid fact or a "must do".
    Actually, the correct quote, as per the article in the OP, is this:



    That makes it fundamentally different than how you quoted her ("I was considering making Lara gay"), as the former clearly denotes a personal opinion whereas the latter implies it was entirely Prachett's call.

    regarding flirting;
    if lara would flirt with both sexes i would feel a bit confused. she doesnt make this impression she is unsure about things.
    Are you implying that people who are bi are "unsure" about their sexuality? If so, that's wrong -_-

    and having some minor RPG element would not harm the game. AoD (as i pointed out earlier) had these options to choose a path lara should take like what she should say. damn, even when you say the wrong thing lara died.
    so it can be implemented and players wont have a problem with the outcome since they can decide what lara should do.
    Who advocated against RPG elements?

    like guiding lara threw a maze.
    or, since sam is smaller build then lara, she could squeeze threw narrow gabs or small holes.


    Heh

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  4. #1954
    @Driber, no I never called Lara bi/gay/straight. As i've said, i never give someone a sexuality until that someone confirms it. A 'yes i'm gay' or 'yes i'm straight' or 'i don't want labels' are enough for me.

    And I've said so many times already as to why I'd love Lara to be bi for reasons that her sexuality is ambiguous and that she's my icon. And sure, if there were a new gay/bi character i'd support this character as well let it be a man or woman. In fact i'd love it if CD makes a new gay lady (enemy or friend) in the next TR games and attempts to flirt Lara. That would be awesome.


    Also, maybe the new reboot annoyed old fans but you need to remember that it brought new fans as well. And it will keep doing that.

    *As for the word annoyance, it was my choice of word, sorry if it sounded as if it was you who you said it.



    @Metal, Rhianna didn't said she would make Lara gay, but she'd love to if given the choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post

    regarding flirting;
    if lara would flirt with both sexes i would feel a bit confused. she doesnt make this impression she is unsure about things
    Bisexuals are not confused people, they just like both genders. Sometimes one gender more than the other and sometimes equal.

  5. #1955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    Also, maybe the new reboot annoyed old fans but you need to remember that it brought new fans as well. And it will keep doing that.
    I know this (and I welcome you as a new fan ) but what is your point, exactly?

    If you're saying that with changes, you bring in new fans, and therefore the changes are justified, then I totally disagree.

    TR9 surely brought in many fans who prefer combat to puzzles/exploration. That doesn't mean that every TR from now on containing a 90-10 percent combat-puzzle/exploration ratio would be a good thing -_-

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  6. #1956
    Nope but balancing things is good. Combat and lots of tombs/puzzles.
    If it brings new fans, means they also attracted fans who like this kind. And that's better for any company than losing fans and not gaining new.


    *lol no i'm not a new fan.

  7. #1957
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    I pretty much agree with Driber's position in this subject and I would just like to add something:

    Driber has mentioned that such a change to Lara's sexuality would cause controversy and some argue that's not necessarily true. Well, it is.

    There's a tv series I watch (Rookie Blue) which is now on its 4th season. The writers decided to make a gay subplot this season. The problem is they decided to do so by picking up one of the characters we've been following since the first season and who has always been in straight relationships. The plot feels forced imo and has divided the fanbase (some truly hate it because it's forced, feels out of character and it's clearly there just for the sake of being diverse; others are loving it because they want diversity and identify with the character more this way).

    Now mind you, this series is in no way such a big deal as the Tomb Raider franchise. With TR, such a decision would be turned into a huge controversy because it wouldn't be just within the fanbase, but it would be all over the place, because TR is a HUGE brand!

    I'm all for diversity in video games, and if CD want to have more diversity in their games, I'm all for it, but not with Lara. Just create a new character and do it.
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  8. #1958
    "others are loving it because they want diversity and identify with the character more this way"

    They still win. Also, that character who has always been in straight relationships, ever thought that she maybe was bisexual and later found out about it and decided to try women? The trick is to be written right. If it felt forced, it was the writer's fault.


    And also, i think you're exaggerating a little about TR.

  9. #1959
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    i never said bi people are unsure about their sexuality. i apologize for the misunderstanding.

    @wild
    i never said that bi people are confused. i was clearly talking about my self here. that I would be confused if i see lara switching between sexes.

    @RPG
    there were few people here who said they dont want TR to be a RPG game.

    @prachett
    ok, i take my "consideration" back. now things are clear.

    @grammar
    lol, thanks for the video.
    this is clearly my lazy mistake for not checking the words clearly. i just use the spell checker and thats it. and i have noticed when i mistyped "through", spellchecker still comes with the word "threw" automatically. dont know why.
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  10. #1960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    "others are loving it because they want diversity and identify with the character more this way"

    They still win. Also, that character who has always been in straight relationships, ever thought that she maybe was bisexual and later found out about it and decided to try women? The trick is to be written right. If it felt forced, it was the writer's fault.


    And also, i think you're exaggerating a little about TR.
    Yeah, and you forgot about the part of the fanbase that is hating it. There's just no pleasing everyone when you pick up a pre-established character and suddenly make such a big change.
    People are ok if it's with new characters (the new love interest to the character I mentioned before is a lesbian and people are generally liking her. It's the change to a pre-established character that some people don't like)

    And I'm not exaggerating about TR. Just look at the huge deal that was made of an alleged rape scene that was allegedly featured in the game! It was all over the place! I think it's naive to think that a change to Lara's sexuality (and yes, I'm calling it a change) wouldn't be blown out of proportion as well.
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  11. #1961
    I don't consider it a change and i'm not the only one.

    Rape and sexuality are two completely different things and the marketing was making a huge mistake there, they marketed it to look like rape which it wasn't. Of course, rape is much more worse than this so it's logical that it would bring controversy.


    There will always be people who don't like things, we can't please everyone. If some of you think that it would bring some controversy about something that is so little and not even completely mentioned (ie Lara's sexuality) then it's best to keep flirtings and relationships away and keep it ambiguous so people can imagine their own Lara Croft.



    I should be clear here; i don't want Lara to have a sexuality nor a relationship in the game, I want her to be ambiguous, that means no flirting either. Kicking ass and raiding "tombs" () is best.

  12. #1962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post

    I don't think so.

    TR is an action-adventure, not an RPG. Romance simply has no real place in this game. I'm not saying there exist(ed) no action-adventure with romantic plot lines, but to me it's clear that people play TR for the action, puzzle solving, exploring, etc.

    To speculate that back in 2006 CD thought to themselves "the world isn't ready yet for a gay Lara Croft" is very far fetched, and it makes much more sense to assume the reason I just mentioned is why we haven't seen romance in TR games.

    But that's just my opinion
    Assassin's Creed is an action adventure game (again I'm referencing Ezio from AC2 set), not an RPG. Max Payne is not an RPG. Uncharted isn't an RPG. Prince of Persia isn't an RPG.

    Basically there are plenty of action adventure games that are in no way RPGs. Yet they still have romance sub-plots in the more traditional scripted story telling manner. So are these games a hindrance to the player's experience because they don't enable the player to choose how the characters interact with one another in those moments (cinematics) in between the action? Really?

    The point is two fold. First that scripted action adv. games today are story and character driven, so non player interactive elements, namely the cinematics are used to drive the story forward in ways that the straight forward A to B level traversal can't. And part of the story is the character development. Where the action can only give us the combat interaction with an on screen avatar, the story sequences gives the player an insight of who the character is beneath the action exterior. (ie, the shooting, punching jumping, etc...)

    So the second point being, that romances are not the exclusive domains of RPGs, nor is it required that it "has" to be up to the player to be viable at all.

    Just look at Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, how this relationship forms between the Prince and Farrah. It starts out very confrontational, as she sees him just as the invader that sacked her home. But the writers play it smart, that gradually over the course of the adventure they get to know each other, see each other as more than just people from different backgrounds, connect with one another, and through it all is the underlying fundamental physical attraction. I mean he's a strapping young lad, she's a smokin hot princess... what's not to get here?

    remember that cinematic where they take a skinny dip in the pool? Every player knows there's more going on than what's shown on screen

    And from there we see physical attraction, and through the shared experience between the two (and shared between the player) how a real intimate connection is formed. The game is that much more satisfying and rewarding because we learn about these two characters as people, more than just platforming and puzzle solving automatons that we piloted.

    It's just an example of how romance can develop the characters and plot in a story driven action game without taking away from the players interaction of what they're supposed to be doing, the running, jumping, combat and all that good stuff.

    So please, let's not use the "this game isn't an RPG" as an excuse anymore. romances are for the story and character development of any game that the player can still enjoy their gameplay activity.

    Besides I'm not trying to turn TR into Mass Effect or a social sim game, saying that the romance should be an interactive part of the gameplay. Just that it can serve a powerful purpose in furthering Lara's character development for the story aspects of the series. It's there in the background, like most of the story elements, to give is a real character that we share the action with
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  13. #1963
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    [QUOTE=adobeARTIST;1944552]Assassin's Creed is an action adventure game (again I'm referencing Ezio from AC2 set), not an RPG. Max Payne is not an RPG. Uncharted isn't an RPG. Prince of Persia isn't an RPG./QUOTE]

    So why not keep Tomb Raider unique and not follow the same path as those other games? I mean don't you think Tomb Raider gets compared to Uncharted enough already? Also while i've never played the Uncharted games I get the impression that Lara's personality is different from that of Nathan Drake.

  14. #1964
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    Yikes, that's one massive reply to my short point to Wild, AA.

    Sorry, but TL;DR

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  15. #1965
    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    I mean don't you think Tomb Raider gets compared to Uncharted enough already? Also while i've never played the Uncharted games I get the impression that Lara's personality is different from that of Nathan Drake.
    Well, while the gameplay is quite the same (that's how most games are these years), it's completely different from Uncharted... and ugh, a kitten dies everytime someone compares Lara with Nathan or anything.

  16. #1966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Yikes, that's one massive reply to my short point to Wild, AA.

    Sorry, but TL;DR
    hehe fair enough, cliffs notes version, pertaining to the whole "RPG argument"

    * Lots of action adventure games incorporate romance sub plots in their scripted story mediums
    * act/adv games are story and character driven, so let's really push that character development to its fullest potential
    * romance, relationsips, or love interests are not RPG genre exclusive, nor have to be driven by player choice mechanics

    Summary; since romantic interests can and do work outside of the RPG genre, let's not use the arguments "but TR isn't an RPG" or "romances can only work in an RPG or if it's the players choice" as a crutch.

    Sooooound good?
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  17. #1967
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    I figured this would be worth posting in this particular thread, heh...


    (click image to enlarge)

    Let the fangasm begin. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand go!



    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    hehe fair enough, cliffs notes version, pertaining to the whole "RPG argument"

    * Lots of action adventure games incorporate romance sub plots in their scripted story mediums
    * act/adv games are story and character driven, so let's really push that character development to its fullest potential
    * romance, relationsips, or love interests are not RPG genre exclusive, nor have to be driven by player choice mechanics

    Summary; since romantic interests can and do work outside of the RPG genre, let's not use the arguments "but TR isn't an RPG" or "romances can only work in an RPG or if it's the players choice" as a crutch.

    Sooooound good?
    Heh, thanks for that summary, much obliged

    Well, if you read my post, you'll see that I didn't claim that romance plots are exclusive to RPGs. I made sure to put a specific disclaimer for that in between my text, as I feared someone would take it like you just did. Guess it wasn't enough

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  18. #1968
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    R2D2 trying to steal the spotlight.

  19. #1969
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    Trying, but failing mi-se-ra-bly

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  20. #1970
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Trying, but failing mi-se-ra-bly
    hehe that is one great looking cosplay duo

  21. #1971
    Aww, bless all the cosplayers, its so cute! -- I love how the Lara-cosplayer has got the nose scar

  22. #1972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    Nope but balancing things is good. Combat and lots of tombs/puzzles.
    If it brings new fans, means they also attracted fans who like this kind. And that's better for any company than losing fans and not gaining new.
    I know, let's turn TR into a COD game. That'll bring in hordes of fans

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    *lol no i'm not a new fan.
    You're not? But registered only recently here? For shame!



    Quote Originally Posted by dark7angel View Post
    I pretty much agree with Driber's position in this subject and I would just like to add something:

    Driber has mentioned that such a change to Lara's sexuality would cause controversy and some argue that's not necessarily true. Well, it is.

    There's a tv series I watch (Rookie Blue) which is now on its 4th season. The writers decided to make a gay subplot this season. The problem is they decided to do so by picking up one of the characters we've been following since the first season and who has always been in straight relationships. The plot feels forced imo and has divided the fanbase (some truly hate it because it's forced, feels out of character and it's clearly there just for the sake of being diverse; others are loving it because they want diversity and identify with the character more this way).

    Now mind you, this series is in no way such a big deal as the Tomb Raider franchise. With TR, such a decision would be turned into a huge controversy because it wouldn't be just within the fanbase, but it would be all over the place, because TR is a HUGE brand!

    I'm all for diversity in video games, and if CD want to have more diversity in their games, I'm all for it, but not with Lara. Just create a new character and do it.
    Good example, Marta. Exactly the kind of thing I foresee happening if Lara is turned gay, as it will be seen to the general public that it's done for the sake of PC diversifying and it's going to be viewed forced for sure.

    And the part you mentioned about gays identifying more with a character after they were turned gay exactly proves my point I made earlier about people relating more to those with the same sexual orientation as themselves. I think we'd be doing people a disservice by denying that logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    The trick is to be written right. If it felt forced, it was the writer's fault.
    Exactly the point I was making earlier about the flirting thing

    But even if written perfectly, that's no guarantee there will not be any controversy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    And also, i think you're exaggerating a little about TR.
    No, I think *you* are playing it down / underestimating it. Either unknowingly, or you're purposely trying to make it *seem* like a gay Lara would be a little thing because you don't want the devs to be afraid to take the risk. Either way, it's a little naive to say the least.

    IHMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    @grammar
    lol, thanks for the video.
    this is clearly my lazy mistake for not checking the words clearly. i just use the spell checker and thats it. and i have noticed when i mistyped "through", spellchecker still comes with the word "threw" automatically. dont know why.
    Heh, same happens to me many times. Darn speel checkers - why can't they be more intelligent

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    I don't consider it a change and i'm not the only one.
    Didn't you say you would stop pushing your opinion on that?

    I'm all up for a good debate, but this extreme repetitiveness from your side is getting out of hand, Wild

    Rape and sexuality are two completely different things and the marketing was making a huge mistake there, they marketed it to look like rape which it wasn't. Of course, rape is much more worse than this so it's logical that it would bring controversy.
    I think you're missing Marta's point and I also think you have not been paying close attention to the controversy about the alleged rape thing. There was no actual attempted rape scene, let alone actual rape.

    You are making it seem bigger than it actually was from CD's side. The video in question was pretty innocent, but was blown out of proportion because of a hyped up and opportunistic media, people with agendas, trolls, etc.

    So in a way, you just exemplified what'll happen if Lara is turned gay - people will not be reasonable and will not be looking at the facts; they'll jump to conclusions, they'll hate because of their own agendas, etc, and thus it will spark a massive controversy.

    There will always be people who don't like things, we can't please everyone. If some of you think that it would bring some controversy about something that is so little and not even completely mentioned (ie Lara's sexuality) then it's best to keep flirtings and relationships away and keep it ambiguous so people can imagine their own Lara Croft.
    "Little" is highly subjective here. What may be little to you, may be a huge deal for others. I don't blame you for viewing it as "little"; if I was a bisexual, myself, I may view it the same, but if you look outside of what I imagine to be your relatively small circle of like-minded friends, you'll see that sexuality is indeed still very much a big deal to most people.

    Take a look what's going on in Russia today, for example

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    and ugh, a kitten dies everytime someone compares Lara with Nathan or anything.
    You heard it, folks. By comparing TR to UC you're killing cute little kittens. So stop it!



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  23. #1973
    No, by little i mean it's hardly mentioned (ie ambiguous), not that sexuality in general isn't a big deal.


    And i'm not going to answer to the rest because we clearly can't agree.

  24. #1974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    No, by little i mean it's hardly mentioned (ie ambiguous), not that sexuality in general isn't a big deal.
    Ah I see. Oh well, my point stands, regardless of my wrong assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post
    And i'm not going to answer to the rest because we clearly can't agree.
    Heh, no problem, agree to disagree.

    I wasn't really replying to carry on those points, anyway, but rather correcting some misconceptions for the sake of others

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  25. #1975
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    I think if a romantic subplot was introduced into the next game (even if it was Sam), if CD were to just slot it in and not make a big deal out of it, I cannot see it becoming a big issue.
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