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Thread: can the elder god be killed with the soul reaver?

  1. #51
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    @SoN
    Well, while Reaver can demolish walls and other materialistic structures, I was talking about the "living" things. Basically the Reaver will hurt anything with a soul in it.

    EG is no exception IMO.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    @SoN
    Well, while Reaver can demolish walls and other materialistic structures, I was talking about the "living" things. Basically the Reaver will hurt anything with a soul in it.

    EG is no exception IMO.
    It is true that the Soul Reaver is capable of damaging the EG. I saw it at the end, when Raziel merged himself into the blade, fulfilling hsi destiny at last and then saw it hurting the EG as Kain cut the tentacles with the newly-upgraded SR. But that's still a great question; is that weapon powerful enough to destroy the EG? In my mind, unless if it had some kind of magical weakness that the EG had, I don't think it can.

  3. #53
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    But he does yell at Kain, almost unwilling to admit the harsh truth after so many years spent while feeding upon (non)innocent souls, "No, you are nothing!"

    Kain, pure from corruption and with completely clear mind, after so long, state "False God".

    Kain is, in fact, 3rd person who saw EG for what it is.

    EG, theatrically, started what he does best - lying, pretending to be the ultimate omnipotent being - a "god".

    ---

    From my point of view, metaphorically, Soul Reaver IS the wheel of fate or at least a key to it. Soul Reaver can kill even a Scion of balance (stated by a corrupt Kain) but it was never meant for Kain to be killed by Soul reaver, truly. In fact, Soul Reaver is the metaphorical 10th pillar, the pillar of truth.

    In many biblical references the name "Sword of truth" or "the truth cuts like a sword" may come into play, so you may apply many things to it trying to seek why the blade alone is that important. As Janos stated, the pillars are the gate and the Reaver is the key.

    ---

    You may not be seeing it clearly - the purpose of the Nosgoth pillars is to maintain the Balance as well as to lock the Hylden away. The means to do this are presented with the pillars themselves and their respective guardians. The most important one is the Balance guardian, who has the pillar in the middle - maintaining the balance completely, and the duty, no matter what type of the road is there to follow. The Pillars and Nosgoth are bound to each-other.

    Since EG is an intelligent parasite, clearly, the only thing left for Kain is to "clean up" the old squid. Unfortunately, EG is left alive in the depths. That's a mighty pity. He clearly doesn't like the competition of less evolved creatures like Sluagh.
    While EG is not the all source of bad things in Nosgoth, he sure is the one that evolved so much for all the years. So, he's a Parasitic manifestation in Nosgoth and while Kain is free from the corruption he can see him properly. When he receives Raziel trough the Soul Reaver the Soul of Kain alone is again complete - all the fragments of the souls that he gave to Rahab, Dumah etc. have been returned thanks to the collector abilities of Raziel.

    Kain, the ultimate Scion of Ballance in his semi-divine arrogantly humble self wants to do some choppy-choppy, stabby-stabby. And he would succeed.
    What can hurt you can also kill you. The thing is, game alone doesn't give you obvious hints about whether or not the EG is really a god or not. Some adequate logical background is missing leaving the room for more logical backgrounds -
    ---

    My personal favorite is the one where the Earth crumbles in front of the Sanctuary of the clans. It could easily be done by the EG to "prove his will" that he subtly forced Raziel to do. But, he was mistaken in doing so. EG would have the victory if Raziel was never Resurrected. For someone who could bypass great time travels (and this is still a question whether he did it with his own "power") he could predict that Raziel will collect Soul of his brothers and ultimately bring them to Kain, however he was sure that Kain will die - the only one who's able to kill EG IMO, due to a fact that Kain is the great vacuum-cleaner of Nosgoth a.k.a Balance guardian.

  4. #54
    Im only half following most of that. Granted i am reading it quickly, as i dont have much time right now. But the part about the Pillars being made to lock the Hylden away and to maintain the balance made me wonder..

    Is this how everyone feels?

    I always thought the purpose of the Pillars was ONLY to lock the Hylden away, and keep them out. So exactly how does that translate into the health and balance of Nosgoth? (Obviously it does. Im not arguing that. Im just wonder WHY it does. They dont really seem connected now that I thinm about it.)

    I dont know if i worded that so its understandable or not. As an avid fan, and one who enjoys theories and what ifs, Im still suddenly very confused about the actual purpose of the Pillars! Am I just tired? Can someone do more to clarify what Mr.Milky just said, or have a theory/proof against it?

    This is gonna bug me so bad!

  5. #55
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    HALL OF FAME POST

    Under Crystal Dynamics the purpose of the pillars has been pruned back so they're just treated as a lock. Silicon Knights conceived of the pillars as something with deeper purpose than just a lock, clearly. They had a lot going on with the pillars and if they'd had the chance to reveal more of Nosgoth's history the pillars would have played a richer role in it. But Crystal shifted the story to the era after the pillars were dead, when their only remaining function was to act as a lock, so that became the focus. And, sadly, it remained their focus even when they traveled back in time and could have added more pillar lore.

    They even went so far as to define the very birth of the pillars as an act of war, which annoys me. It diminishes the pillars from the wondrous first impression we got of them in Blood Omen. And it doesn't make sense because why would soldiers bother to add in all of the "fruitier" pillar powers besides Conflict & Dimension and maybe Energy.

    Scenario:
    It'd make much more sense for the pillars to have been a peacetime project with many open-ended functions for regulating things totally unrelated to the war. And then the war came and lasted so long that it unbalanced their species so they just wanted to end the war by any means necessary. The people's unbalanced mental state spilled over to influence the pillar guardians, who finally bowed to the pressure and used the pillars in the war effort, abusing the Pillar of Dimension to make it serve as their nuke. Conflict should be only 1/9th of the pillars' duties, not the whole shabang. So for the pillars to become retasked as the vampire nuke, that means Conflict came to dominate the pillars instead of Balance, tipping the pillars out of balance and causing strain on the whole system because it wasn't the intended use of the dimension pillar but an unbalanced use of it. In fact, that may be what opened the vampires up to getting cursed. The curse was like the balancing of the equation they'd shortsightedly messed with. The price of sending one species to hell is you must suffer hellish effects yourself on this side of the barrier, like backdraft from the hellfire you unleashed.

    Recently I battled against that mural in SR2 that shows the "creators" raising the pillars at the same moment as the banishment took place. I was really hoping to find a way around that mural being fact, so that we could add an earlier honeymoon era for the pillars before the war came, when the pillars had a different original purpose than just to lock out the Unspoken. A better purpose, one worth having Restored when the scion raises new pillars. That way there's a healthy reason for having new pillars besides continuing the nasty vendetta with the hylden. The hylden issue deserves a better resolution than just putting a new padlock on the gate and calling it a day. As the pillars are busy renewing the world, the scion should busy himself with cleaning up the arrangement between his species and the hylden, which has been festering without end for far too long, making each of their existences as grimy as the SR1 future. Deeply out of balance. Time for it all to be addressed by balance's scion.


    So here's a new work-around for that mural:
    1) pillars were raised earlier than Amy ever revealed
    2) honeymoon era when pillars had a truer purpose and were used as intended to improve the world
    3) war started
    4) hylden DESTROYED THE ORIGINAL PILLARS as one of their victories
    5) vampires RESTORED THE PILLARS, this time as the enraged act of war seen in the SR2 Mural. The rage carried them to a bad place too, not just the hylden.
    6) the Dimension pillar was originally designed only to keep a perfect seal in place, fencing out extra-dimensional species while keeping native species safe on this side of the barrier. This it could manage "effortlessly." But because these new pillars were recoding an entire native species as non-native (the hylden race), maintaining this wrongful banishment took special effort, like when you try to hold something underwater that naturally wants to float to the surface, and this put stress on the pillars beyond their design specs. Shouldering this additional burden caused the new pillars to never be quite right, like a scale that's tipped slightly when it should be level.... out of balance. (Demons slip through the barrier now for three reasons: A) by personal invite from the mad dimension guardian, B) because the barrier is weakening from humans being "incompetent to serve" as guardians, and C) because the perfect dimensional seal was already ruined long ago by this wrongful banishment of the hylden. Hylden still have a connection to this world, still have their foot caught in the door (spiritually speaking), so the door can't close all the way and vampires must constantly be there to pull the door closed with their strength of will. Vampires sought to end this constant arm-wrestling match for control of the barrier by forging the Reaver to lock the gateway up tight so they could relax for a time. But this really amounted to more of a war crime than a "solution." The only difference after the reaver sealed the hylden away is now the eternal suffering of the hylden was taking place in a muffled sound-proof room the vampires could try to forget about entirely. So the vampires eased their conscience even though they were really still guilty of perpetrating an ongoing crime, and they were all the more heinous for forgetting about the victims. Hylden Lord then busted open the seal again so he, his countrymen, and assorted demons could poke through into the world like cold air seeps through a window seal that's not airtight anymore. )

    So the guardians took a righteously unbalanced stance when they ended the war, and after the war they had to maintain that posture to hold the hylden out. This choice went against the whole spirit of the pillars and caused the guardians to gradually "fail." It's also WHY ALL OF THE PAST BALANCE GUARDIANS FROM THIS ERA HAD UNFINISHED BUSINESS (since they had allowed the dimensional imbalance to continue and thus hadn't done their jobs right and could find no peace in death). That's why their spirits were still waiting around for the Scion to come along and finally correct the imbalance they'd failed to own up to during their tenure. The scales of history need to be made level, balanced out at last, this time by a competent hand so we don't get another result like the curse, which is what happens when you leave it up to the uncaring universe to balance these things out by itself without oversight.


    Huh? Well? This way, the SR2 Creation Mural remains historically true but we'd be able to expand the history of the pillars to make them more well rounded, a construct with deeper purpose than just being a weapon with very odd non-military features. And I'd like for the ancient world to have great accomplishments of its own so that the vampires' greatest achievement is more than just a big "Take This, Hyldens!"

  6. #56
    Thanks Squid. I thought something seemed off, once I started thinking of it. I guess I always just accepted the pillars tie to Nosgoth because of BO (or because "thats just the way the world works").

    I really like that theory and scenario.

    While reading it, I sort of stumbled across my own theory as to why the Pillars do more than act as a lock. I want to do a (minute) bit of digging, and post it from my comp, not my phone. But I will post it soon.

    If Squid said,
    like when you try to hold something underwater that naturally wants to float to the surface
    And my first thought was, "like a puppy?" Do I need to look for professional help?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    They even went so far as to define the very birth of the pillars as an act of war, which annoys me. It diminishes the pillars from the wondrous first impression we got of them in Blood Omen. And it doesn't make sense because why would soldiers bother to add in all of the "fruitier" pillar powers besides Conflict & Dimension and maybe Energy.
    I don't think that it can diminish the purpose of the pillars in any way or form. Frankly, they were my main focus throughout the series and I personally like them to remain mysterious because it adds more spice to the story. Knowing the origins of the pillars - not a big deal, honestly. It's ok, but not essential.

    Scenario:
    It'd make much more sense
    I adore when you start like this.

    for the pillars to have been a peacetime project with many open-ended functions for regulating things totally unrelated to the war.
    The thing is - they were used as a tool, among other things. The pillars are made for regulating the Nosgoth, as we all know pretty well.

    And then the war came and lasted so long that it unbalanced their species so they just wanted to end the war by any means necessary. The people's unbalanced mental state spilled over to influence the pillar guardians, who finally bowed to the pressure and used the pillars in the war effort, abusing the Pillar of Dimension to make it serve as their nuke.
    I don't recall having human species in the ancient war era. Unless you all of a sudden switched so far away into the future.

    [B]Conflict should be only 1/9th of the pillars' duties, not the whole shabang.
    How did you came up with the 1/9 thing and furthermore how do you actually know the "proper" functions of the pillars which still are a great mystery for everyone?! This is just you assuming things.
    As far as I noticed I've seen that the pillars can manifest in any way possible. Nupraptor, for example, made everyone crazy.

    So for the pillars to become retasked as the vampire nuke, that means Conflict came to dominate the pillars instead of Balance, tipping the pillars out of balance and causing strain on the whole system because it wasn't the intended use of the dimension pillar but an unbalanced use of it.
    The thing is - Fate governs the balance. It's unchangeable, undeniable. Every single thing in the existence tends to get to the point of balance, a perfect circle. That's why no pillar can be "greater" than the other pillar, but if there's a lot of peace and no conflict - it's a problem. Balance isn't the "head" of it, it's a regulator for the world alone. Each pillar represents a power in the world and Nosgoth alone.

    [I]In fact, that may be what opened the vampires up to getting cursed. The curse was like the balancing of the equation they'd shortsightedly messed with.
    "In fact", sure. I like how you subtly enforce your opinions as if they're facts. I disagree with this sentence of yours because the vampires didn't place the Curse upon themselves and even if you were right regarding it, the turning point wouldn't be what "vampires did" but who they've been following. The main disruptive factor of the balance is exactly EG.

    The price of sending one species to hell is you must suffer hellish effects yourself on this side of the barrier, like backdraft from the hellfire you unleashed.
    Way too superficial.

    Recently I battled against that mural in SR2 that shows the "creators" raising the pillars at the same moment as the banishment took place. I was really hoping to find a way around that mural being fact, so that we could add [B]an earlier honeymoon era for the pillars before the war came, when the pillars had a different original purpose than just to lock out the Unspoken.
    I wonder why are you so certain that the whole "new purpose" of the pillars actually exist? What made you to believe that the pillars are "only a lock" and not something greater? Can't you accept the posibility of them being multipractical?

    A better purpose, one worth having Restored when the scion raises new pillars.
    Oh, god.

    That way there's a healthy reason for having new pillars besides continuing the nasty vendetta with the hylden. The hylden issue deserves a better resolution than just putting a new padlock on the gate and calling it a day. As the pillars are busy renewing the world, the scion should busy himself with cleaning up the arrangement between his species and the hylden, which has been festering without end for far too long, making each of their existences as grimy as the SR1 future. Deeply out of balance. Time for it all to be addressed by balance's scion.
    Heh, the balance alone removed them from the Nosgoth and now it's up to the Scion to drink coffee with Hylden?
    The thing is - they weren't "removed" during the corrupted era of Nosgoth. They were removed thanks to the fate alone. While it can't be applied to it completely it's said
    "The irritant is cast away". Basically, the balance alone made the Hylden to disappear and we see that trough the acts of the Vampires. however they've went, again, far and cursed the Ancients with vampiric curse (or gift) only to harm the EG, who at that turning point started a new politic page of hating the vampires. They still praised him, without knowing his face, but ultimately humans arose and that was thanks to the, again, balance.

    So here's a new work-around for that mural:
    1) pillars were raised earlier than Amy ever revealed
    2) honeymoon era when pillars had a truer purpose and were used as intended to improve the world
    3) war started
    And that's how it was.

    4) hylden DESTROYED THE ORIGINAL PILLARS as one of their victories
    Nope. They don't have the means to destroy them. They're still trying, though.
    5) vampires RESTORED THE PILLARS, this time as the enraged act of war seen in the SR2 Mural. The rage carried them to a bad place too, not just the hylden.
    Murals are not to be trusted, as stated by nearly everyone.

    6) the Dimension pillar was originally designed only to keep a perfect seal in place, fencing out extra-dimensional species while keeping native species safe on this side of the barrier. This it could manage "effortlessly." But because these new pillars were recoding an entire native species as non-native (the hylden race), maintaining this wrongful banishment took special effort, like when you try to hold something underwater that naturally wants to float to the surface, and this put stress on the pillars beyond their design specs. Shouldering this additional burden caused the new pillars to never be quite right, like a scale that's tipped slightly when it should be level.... out of balance.
    Nope. There're numerous dimensions and not essentially the one where the Hyldens are banished. There's also Spectral Realm (that's also a dimension). And so on.

    (Demons slip through the barrier now for three reasons: A) by personal invite from the mad dimension guardian, B) because the barrier is weakening from humans being "incompetent to serve" as guardians, and C) because the perfect dimensional seal was already ruined long ago by this wrongful banishment of the hylden.
    A, b - correct, c - nope. There was never a "perfect" dimensional seal. Once more I have to say that you look at things way too superficially and you're not connecting somewhat spiritual/metaphorical/poetic level of the pillars themselves. The pillars are not just a structure with some purpose. They're the manifestation of the world alone. And as such they're prone to changes.

    Hylden still have a connection to this world, still have their foot caught in the door (spiritually speaking), so the door can't close all the way and vampires must constantly be there to pull the door closed with their strength of will.
    because the Hylden are smart and can use their own tools to gain passage, however they couldn't do much harm anyway. That's why they use demons. Demons can influence weak human minds easily.

    Vampires sought to end this constant arm-wrestling match for control of the barrier by forging the Reaver to lock the gateway up tight so they could relax for a time. But this really amounted to more of a war crime than a "solution." The only difference after the reaver sealed the hylden away is now the eternal suffering of the hylden was taking place in a muffled sound-proof room the vampires could try to forget about entirely. So the vampires eased their conscience even though they were really still guilty of perpetrating an ongoing crime, and they were all the more heinous for forgetting about the victims. Hylden Lord then busted open the seal again so he, his countrymen, and assorted demons could poke through into the world like cold air seeps through a window seal that's not airtight anymore. )
    The vampires knew that they can't do anything about completely locking out the Hylden. They waited for the vampiric prophecy to arrive and that's why the Reaver was given to the Janos for safekeeping. They wait for the Scion of Balance to completely lock away or defeat the Hylden. Given the ammount of kains arrogance, with his arrogance alone, he can accomplish this. And after killing some of the ol' Hylden army in BO2 I doubt that they'll be thrilled to kiss and make-up.

    So the guardians took a righteously unbalanced stance when they ended the war, and after the war they had to maintain that posture to hold the hylden out. This choice went against the whole spirit of the pillars and caused the guardians to gradually "fail." It's also WHY ALL OF THE PAST BALANCE GUARDIANS FROM THIS ERA HAD UNFINISHED BUSINESS (since they had allowed the dimensional imbalance to continue and thus hadn't done their jobs right and could find no peace in death). That's why their spirits were still waiting around for the Scion to come along and finally correct the imbalance they'd failed to own up to during their tenure. The scales of history need to be made level, balanced out at last, this time by a competent hand so we don't get another result like the curse, which is what happens when you leave it up to the uncaring universe to balance these things out by itself without oversight.
    This is completely true. Best regards!

  8. #58
    Prologue?
    No puppies were harmed during the writing of this message... At least no cute puppies.

    Theory-
    Let me first start by posting the entirety of my research. In Defiance when Raziel is in the catacombs under Avernus Cathedral, he finds a mural made by the Hylden, explaining:

    the noble Vampires, god-ridden and righteous, had started the wars that would destroy both races – victor and vanquished alike. Their adversaries opposed the Vampires’ god, and refused to submit to the Wheel of Fate. For this they were banished.
    (end research)

    So let's look at it in a real world comparable sceinario(s). Throughout our history, mankind has waged brutal "Holy Wars" on those unbelievers who refuse to acknowledge a new god. Killing any heathen who doesnt convert to their religious views. Very much in an "all or nothing" mindset.This is mirriored in LoK with the Vampire-Hylden War.

    Not that WW2 was a "Holy War" per se, but imagine what would have happened if the Nazi's had created the nuclear bomb first.

    The Pillars could be the equivalent of an armament of nukes... Plus.

    Are you catching what I'm throwing down? Not quite? Then let me get my Novel on:

    The creation of the Pillars could have had the immediate effect of banishing the Vampire's greatest adversary - the Hylden - , and locking them away. Thus forcing the whole of Nosgoth to bend to the Wheel of Fate (even unwittingly). This we already know (basically).

    But the Pillars could also have been erected to serve as a literal Heart for Nosgoth. With the Wheel's divine power keeping the life pumping into the world. This heart would force all of Nosgoth to serve (or at least acknowledge) the Wheel, or what it represents, or slowly die should the heart be destroyed; with that same "all or nothing" mentality I mentioned earlier.

    What better way to take over the world (In the name of God, of course!)than to simultaniously banish your greatest foe, and set up an everlasting stronghold "proving" your god's divine power.

    Basically holding the essence of life hostage, should anyone try to corrupt or destroy the Pillars, or release the imprisoned Hylden. Should one of these things happen the armament of Nukes explodes. Releasing the Hylden, but simultaniously choking the life from the world. All or nothing: If the Vampires can't have it, no one can.


    Epilogue?
    While everything in LoK falls in the gray area, and there is no "black-and -white" person, sect, or race, I think (following this theory) that the Vampires are the "darkest gray."

    Dodging a Bullet, and Painting a Target on Myself:
    Some could argue that the Elder God is the cause of Nosgoth's slow demise, as he consumes life, without allowing it to be reborn. I am aware of this but do not think it to be the case.
    SR1 takes place at least 1000 years after the pillars are destroyed. If EG gobbled up all the dead spirits, not allowing them to be reborn, then there would be no free spirits to inhabit a newborn child. So a vampire could live to 1000, and make others. But a human can only live to 100, and wouldnt be able to reproduce, because of the lack of life essence.

    Im stopping now. There's more. My brain is still putting (maybe the wrong) pieces together. But my I'm tired, and youre tired of me. So stop bothering me, I'm going to bed!

    *Edit* Yea, it's me again. One more thing. I also realize that some of you think that The Wheel of Fate, and The Elder God are one in the same. They couldn't possibly be. The Vampires worship a cycle of life-death-and-rebirth. They do not worship an entity that breaks this cycle. This entity is Vampire Satan.

    OMG I need to stop and go to bed before someone ASCII stabs me! Goodnight!

  9. #59
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    Interesting theory I must say, but for proper argumentation many wars were not led by religions. In fact, a Religion can't "lead a war" contrary to the popular belief, however it can be used as a tool to gather the weakminded.

    Anyway, for me EG is most definitely not a "god" in the LoK universe. Just a plain, simple parasite who outlasted his usefulness...

  10. #60
    reading through this post made me think what if the elder god actually has no powers? ... everything is derived from the pillars from his time travel, resurrecting the dead, shifting between planes, telepathy, growth etc...

    That would definately fit into the false god idea if him being beneath the pillars and wrapping around them is some way of him force leeching the powers which were previously only bestowed upon the circle of 9 (and even then just one person per pillar) - hes not trying to topple it or destroy them he is desperately trying not to let go of them so he can maintain this false impression that he is the ultimate god of nosgoth with all of the powers of the circle of 9.

    i know its a crazy thought.

  11. #61
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    Given all the time that he had to acquire or trick people, it's no wonder that he got attached to the powers of the pillars.

    In our history you may see a squid attached to a wreckage of pillars or ships, luring anything inside.

    As for the EG, perhaps Moebius gave him a bit of power or an ability to control the time. Or Moebius did it exactly as ordered to let Kain in different timeline (The Oracle Scene).

    There's just one particular situation which is a thorn in my eye and it's the exact moment in defiance when EG forbids Raziel to shift planes, so Raziel had to find an alternative way.
    But he did evolve a lot and he did eat souls. That alone would give power, but the question is to what degree?!
    It's obvious that he's not a god.

  12. #62
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    The Great Blast of 2013

    All we can say for sure about ElderGod is that he's malignant. And hideous. Lots of the Titans didn't look human either, tho. They weren't pretty like Zeus, but they still had enough godlike power to rival the Olympians we think of as the "real" gods. There are lots of examples of trickster gods just like Elder who abuse the system, don't like humanity, and don't play by the rules. I think EG is a fraud who doesn't deserve worshippers and has to lie and deceive to get them. But you can still be a demigod without "deserving" to be one. We just don't know how much of a fraud he is. We don't know where his lies end and the truth begins.

    @essex:

    Quote Originally Posted by essex1990 View Post
    what if the elder god actually has no powers? ... everything is derived from the pillars....he is desperately trying not to let go of them so he can maintain this false impression that he is the ultimate god of nosgoth. i know its a crazy thought.
    Not crazy at all. It's one of the possibilities Soul Reaver 2 wanted us to consider when it showed that "guilty scene" of EG positioned at the base of the broken pillars. He's there for some important reason. It could be he's there as a pillar-power thief (for example, what if he's the one who cut off the flow of power to the Guardians on the day when Vorador killed them). Or he could be guarding the pillars like an eternal watchdog because he knows they're the one thing that can cleanse the Wheel of his filth and kick him out of Nosgoth.

    I like to mix these two explanations together to explain EG's behavior: He had some power when he first appeared, and used it to impress the Ancients so they'd worship him, but he got his more amazing powers "falsely" by stealing them from the Wheel, which is like a naturally occurring Chronoplast of timeless souls that gave him timeless vision, etc. .... then he put on a show of Oracle power for the ancients and at first they worshipped him but over time they started learning all of Elder's magic tricks for themselves (they built their own physical chronoplast chamber, etc.) ....they eventually graduated from being EG's thralls when they built the pillars, prooving that they were now "gods" as much as he was and could act on their own. So the god was angry for petty reasons, but also he was angry with them because they'd acted unwisely:

    They had used a nuke and would now be caught in the blast and suffer the after effects. The vampires, the pillars, and EG all became infected and/or cursed as a result of opening the gate to hell. This act made it possible for the hylden to "poison the well" using the vile substance of the banishment realm. Now in addition to being puffed up with arrogance EG is sickly with soul hunger. He can't perform his own magic tricks anymore..... that's why he's huddled around the pillars, because he needs to rely on that artificial construct for his powers now. He leans on Moebius like a cane. The pillars are Elder's cane? If so, when the other Kain blew up the pillars he took away EG's crutches and tossed them aside, diminishing EG's influence in the material realm. (Another reason for all the Kain hate). So, with everyone hobbled, they were trapped into a 1500 year stalemate.

    _______________

    for Strands:

    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    the Pillars serve as a literal Heart for Nosgoth.
    I like the heart disease analogy this sets up (the Heart of the planet suffered the same fate as the flesh-and-blood hearts of cursed vampires). I usually go with the very similar pacemaker analogy: Nature already had a working heart, in other words: the reincarnation system of the Wheel. This functioned without the help of Ancients or EG. But the great war must have destabilized the planet badly. The Ancients felt the planet needed a pacemaker, so they hooked Nosgoth up to the pillars and regulated the planet's heartbeat successfully for a good while, until the flaw in that system was exposed: a pacemaker can be disabled, causing the planet to suffer a heart attack that's more harmful than the irregular heartbeat the pillars were meant to fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strands Of Night View Post
    The Pillars could be the equivalent of an armament of nukes...forcing the whole of Nosgoth to bend to the Wheel of Fate (even unwittingly).... ~ What better way to take over the world in the name of God than by banishing the foes who refused to join the Wheel while at the same time holding the rest of Nosgoth hostage to the pillars and forcing them to accept the Wheel.
    Okay, so this is how you're making sense of pillars like "Mind" and "Nature" and "States", which don't seem to belong now that we know the pillars were raised as an act of war. You're saying that these non-military-sounding pillars really are exerting military-style power over the world in new ways, bringing their aspect of life under the Wheel's control (to kill off the last bits of resistance to the Wheel that may have existed). Okay. So the Mind pillar's job would be to prevent science from causing problems for the Wheel again, as it did with the hylden.

    Quote Originally Posted by From the Game
    Their adversaries opposed the Vampires’ god, and refused to submit to the Wheel of Fate.
    The hylden "refused to submit," which means it's a choice! You have to sign up to ride the Wheel like how a long term phone contract makes you sign over your soul! Or maybe every species starts out as a member of the Wheel by default, but we have the right to Unsubscribe! I'm convinced the hylden were never immortal while on Nosgoth, only the banishment dimension made them so. That means they died on Nosgoth and the Wheel still couldn't pull in their souls for some reason! They found a way to resist. So I'm saying they used science for this. Through science they discovered they were diminishing over the generations, so they X-rayed the spectral realm and found out there was something rotten infesting the Wheel and sapping their souls of vigor. They cancelled their souls' subscriptions to the Wheel, using more science to re-route their souls' journey through the underworld to safely escape the spectral predator EG. They were the last holdouts who had to be banished because they refused to sign their souls over to EG. So when the ancients built the pillars, they included the pillar of Mind in order to prevent scientific thought from causing any more problems for the Wheel in the future!!!!!! Vampires took ownership of this tool.

    Nature and States pillars would play similar enforcer roles. Nature would nudge the 'mindless' plant and animal life to sign over their essence to the wheel upon death (with Bane signing for them, basically) so the wheel would never have to compete with an alternative ecosystem (Wheel-free). States would constantly scan the world for threats from the unknown, like virus protection software. It examined all the possible hiding places (states of being) where there might still be some form of resistance to the wheel. This view of things works, as far as I can tell, StrandsOfNight.

    _________

    for Mr. Milky:
    Do you see how I did more here ^ than simply being contrary, Mr. Milky? Criticism that doesn't contribute anything useful is just trolling, which is why I don't read or respond to your stuff anymore. It's been a few months, though, so I decided to take a look at this last post of yours to see if you've improved, and I see you're still doing the same thing. So let's go through it to show how much of a troll it was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    I don't recall having human species in the ancient war era.
    And I didn't say anything about humans being there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    What made you to believe that the pillars are "only a lock" and not something greater?
    That was me saying the pillars should be treated as more than a lock. It's Eidos who shrank the role of the pillars so that they were only a lock in the later games. This should change. We should open up the full range of possibilities again that the pillars offered in Blood Omen. Got it?
    They (hylden) were removed thanks to the fate alone.
    They were removed thanks to the dimension pillar. First you tease me for saying "what would make more sense...", and then you go on to make much less sense.
    How did you came up with the 1/9 thing
    Um, because Conflict is 1 of the 9 pillars.
    no pillar can be "greater" than the other pillar
    The Balance Pillar is greater than the other pillars and governs over them. That's part of the story. Which is why it should prevent the Conflict Pillar from dominating.

    Yet Conflict and Dimension seem to be the main reasons why the pillars were raised. It started as a weapon. So that didn't feel right compared to the first impression we got of the pillars in Blood Omen. There, they were something mystical. Divinely inspired. Something better than a war atrocity. Now there's a blemish on them. Blood Pillars. That's why I said it diminished them to learn they were born as an act of war. And you sort of agreed when you contradicted yourself to say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    I personally like them to remain mysterious because it adds more spice to the story. Knowing the origins of the pillars - not a big deal.
    That's like admitting you preferred the unknowable pillars in Blood Omen back before we learned any specific info about their creation! Which means we feel the same way and you're just being contrary.

    Also, the military doesn't usually plan far enough ahead to include peacetime aspects like Balance and Nature as part of a mega-weapon. So it's odd that these Ancients did that. It seems they were planning ahead, though, using the same construct to not only fix the world (with Conflict & Dimension) but to keep it fixed for all time (with Nature & Balance). The symbolic purpose of the pillars is to take the tools of warfare (Conflict, Energy, Death, Mind, States, etc.) and put Balance in charge of them to bring them under control. Then the pillars turned that symbolic arrangement into reality. They cast their shadow over the whole world thanks to powerful magics, and brought Balance to life. Unfortunately, the only way they managed to get the world Balanced was by committing an atrocity upon the enemy. That means the Pillars were 'built on an Indian burial ground.' (That's a way of saying that the Ancients brought bad karma (luck) upon themselves, and their own deeds keep coming back to haunt them.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    Way too superficial.
    Try Succinct instead. Eloquent. Concise. Powerfully descriptive. And superficial too, yes, because that was the point. Here's the sentence in question: "The price of sending one species to hell is you must suffer hellish effects yourself on this side of the barrier, like backdraft from the hellfire you unleashed." In that one sentence, I accurately summarized the fate of the vampires, which has taken an entire series of games to play out. So of course it isn't going to go into great detail. It's one sentence. But it was profound. Which is another kind of depth. And for reasons of your own you didn't want to face up to the truth it contains, so you labeled it superficial and quickly moved on to avoid dealing with how its depth may sweep some of your notions aside. Do you know what's superficial? This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Milky View Post
    after killing some of the ol' Hylden army in BO2 I doubt that they'll be thrilled to kiss and make-up.
    That's a very shallow surface view of things. They don't like each other, huh? This is a story of centuries upon centuries of species hatred. There's never going to be a great time for making peace. It'll never look likely. But what was the vampires' reward for "ending" the war with the pillars? They're still fighting a War Without End. So we know what'll happen for the next 1000 years if Kain ignores the real problem again, or if he only bashes the hylden king. More neverending war. That's not progress, and progress is good. In a series that started with genocide, one way of showing progress would be to have it end with something new besides hylden extinction. Resolving this conflict is actually the one thing we've never seen anybody try! And I have grappled with this problem of how to forge the peace until I came up with a very realistic solution that uses much of the timeline to get the job done and it pays off well (not superficially). So smile and be happy. You may get to play it on Playstation 6 someday. If you're Okida and I offended you with an unflattering review of your early work long ago, you can stop following me around on the net now because I've become a fan. If you're not Okida, then just learn how to be a constructive critic with something to say that's worth hearing, and I promise to try reading another of your critiques in 6 months or so. Until then.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
    for Mr. Milky:
    Do you see how I did more here ^ than simply being contrary, Mr. Milky? Criticism that doesn't contribute anything useful is just trolling, which is why I don't read or respond to your stuff anymore. It's been a few months, though, so I decided to take a look at this last post of yours to see if you've improved, and I see you're still doing the same thing. So let's go through it to show how much of a troll it was:
    If you held any grudge against me for this long (or were you just mentally preparing?) I find that you're mistaken on several points.
    I don't care what you do/did but if you write something be prepared on all and every criticism from people around. However if you're going to proclaim yourself supreme commander of the "how things should follow up" in the LoK series with Mass Effect setting in mind - think again.

    Quite frankly I can't imagine what was the trigger that made you go all boom, but you're just being rude for no apparent reason which is making me feel uncomfortable writing this reply to you. If I'm a subject of your ignoring I couldn't care less to change your mind since you didn't actually try to understand my standpoint, but you did manage to play all mighty as if you're doing a tremendous job writing fanfiction.

    That was me saying the pillars should be treated as more than a lock. It's Eidos who shrank the role of the pillars so that they were only a lock in the later games. This should change. We should open up the full range of possibilities again that the pillars offered in Blood Omen. Got it?
    I guess that writing an essay really got on your nerves since I'm getting a lot of negativity from your post. Nor I see Eidos as someone who shrank the role of the pillars. The pillars were/are corrupted. You can't do much with a rotten apple anyway.
    Also the pillars got their human guardians who didn't quite understand the whole purpose of it. The pillars are inevitably connected to the whole well-being of the Nosgoth and the current generations who are in command. Still to say "just a lock" because "there could be done so much more" - I can't really understand such dissatisfaction but I can notice your strong urge to make your own game.

    They were removed thanks to the dimension pillar. First you tease me for saying "what would make more sense...", and then you go on to make much less sense.
    So, the dimension pillar is not connected to the fate. Tease? If I disagree with your vision of the futuristic setting that doesn't mean that I'm picking a fight with you, so relax. Also, this

    And then the war came and lasted so long that it unbalanced their species so they just wanted to end the war by any means necessary. The people's unbalanced mental state spilled over to influence the pillar guardians, who finally bowed to the pressure and used the pillars in the war effort, abusing the Pillar of Dimension to make it serve as their nuke.
    You're basically saying that people (humans) Nuked Hylden. Unless you find me a fool for forgetting to define "the people", unless you wanted to say ancients. Or, unless you were talking about some fanfictive happening of yours.

    Um, because Conflict is 1 of the 9 pillars.
    Thanks for clearing that out while completely forgetting to answer my question.

    The Balance Pillar is greater than the other pillars and governs over them. That's part of the story. Which is why it should prevent the Conflict Pillar from dominating.
    Again, those are your assumptions. While the Balance pillar is bigger that doesn't mean that RE/ACTIONS of other pillars should be hierarchically placed under King Balance the Great. STILL, they ARE eventually which is the concept of fate. Everything that happens if completely fatalistic with utmost determinism and everything is as it should be. So you completely fail to realize the pillar function simply because it does not compute or is illogical to you. Meaning that you base all of it on your personal opinion and you're not trying to see it from some other perspective. And this is why I had a strong urge to tell you that you look at things way too superficial.
    Conflict pillar isn't some 1/9 Sugar cup to be added in the making of. It's always there and it's always present so I can't see why do you have the feeling that all Nosgoth is - is about Conflict since it's not! Just because we play one part of Nosgoth's history with 2 character that doesn't mean that we've seen all people, their lives and how they deal with life in different time periods in Nosgoth. And I can't even try to imagine someone "fixing" LoK series to appear "more sensible". it's perfect the way it is even if it does possess some flaws or irregularities, but I'm under impression that you're trying to find the hair in the egg.

    Yet Conflict and Dimension seem to be the main reasons why the pillars were raised. It started as a weapon.
    It never started as a weapon. Soul Reaver is a weapon, pillars are not. Pillars are tools. Tools and weapons are essentially different. While tools may be used as a weapon, I never saw anyone picking up one pillar and hitting someone with them Conflict, dimension or no dimension at all.

    It's like saying that building a house is making a weapon. Why? Because zombies can't come in. Also, weapons kill - Weapons are built to be effective way of killing, not banishing over the street...or dimension.

    So that didn't feel right compared to the first impression we got of the pillars in Blood Omen.
    Why do you talk in plural about something that's highly individual and personal (Impressions, feelings)?!

    There, they were something mystical. Divinely inspired. Something better than a war atrocity. Now there's a blemish on them. Blood Pillars. That's why I said it diminished them to learn they were born as an act of war. And you sort of agreed when you contradicted yourself to say:

    That's like admitting you preferred the unknowable pillars in Blood Omen back before we learned any specific info about their creation! Which means we feel the same way and you're just being contrary.
    First of all I'm not "admitting" things here. I'm not under some trial where I'm defending my innocence while being guilty of something. Next time drop the "good - bad" allegations and just have a normal conversation. As normal as it can get.

    Being highly subjective is a strong side of yours, I can tell Since you already decided how things are for both me and you (and others, non the less, in the previous sentence). Still, I'm not contrarily doing what I'm doing here, I'm just defending the pillars and trying to place some different light then what you try to express. However the difference is that I don't use plural and I do respect what others have to say since I don't believe that I've learnt all about LoK series. However that doesn't mean that I can't see your errors.

    But you're talking about parts of story where things were not yet known and parts of story which took place almost two decades ago!
    You can't expect to have the same feeling for the pillars as you had before, besides it was all part of the game and from it you may learn a lot. I can't see why do you have a need to express the pillars as a divinity - I mean, they clearly are made with great power and are a representation of Nosgoth, but in the games there's no particular point to flash it in front of the people. And I can't see why you'd lose respect for the Pillars simply because of something that you know about SO FAR in the storyline. Things are still open for explanation and complete twists regardless of the personal impressions and feelings. And, besides, the game wasn't called "The Pillars of Nosgoth : Fallen Legacy" and "The pillars of Nosgoth : EG's epic meal time".
    Though, now when I think about it - EG can publish a book called : "How I deceived everyone, even myself".

    Also, the military doesn't usually plan far enough ahead to include peacetime aspects like Balance and Nature as part of a mega-weapon. So it's odd that these Ancients did that. It seems they were planning ahead, though, using the same construct to not only fix the world (with Conflict & Dimension) but to keep it fixed for all time (with Nature & Balance). The symbolic purpose of the pillars is to take the tools of warfare (Conflict, Energy, Death, Mind, States, etc.) and put Balance in charge of them to bring them under control. Then the pillars turned that symbolic arrangement into reality. They cast their shadow over the whole world thanks to powerful magics, and brought Balance to life. Unfortunately, the only way they managed to get the world Balanced was by committing an atrocity upon the enemy. That means the Pillars were 'built on an Indian burial ground.' (That's a way of saying that the Ancients brought bad karma (luck) upon themselves, and their own deeds keep coming back to haunt them.)
    Nice opinion, but I disagree with it. Simply because of the fact that Ancients were not war-loving, conflict-seeking people. Also, how can It not come to you that Eg quite probably had major involvement in the banishing of the Hylden - So why blaming the naive ancients who were no greater then toy soldiers in the EG's room?! However I don't believe that EG planned for the pillars. For all we know EG probably was "good" at some point until he became a drug/soul addict. For all we know, some Hylden general/warlord placed his own parasitic manifestation in the place where the original EG was.
    And, above everything else that there is - that story aspect is pretty much void and open to anything. But fixing the pillars while diminishing their purpose only with the aspect of warfare ... really can't understand why do you rush into conclusions given EVERYTHING you've seen in the LoK series and knowing just how much a single solitary thing can be treacherous and completely change the aspect of the story.
    For me it's quite clear that the pillars are not used as something purely warlike.
    And I find your allusion "Hylden - Indians" quite blasphemous even though you meant no harm.

    Try Succinct instead. Eloquent. Concise. Powerfully descriptive. And superficial too, yes, because that was the point.
    You forgot - arrogant. Childish. Not very imaginative. Delusional. But I like your style even though you're just highly stubborn. And I have no problem with any of those and that's why I'll answer or reply to anything you write out of sheer respect for what you do or what you're trying to accomplish.

    Here's the sentence in question: "The price of sending one species to hell is you must suffer hellish effects yourself on this side of the barrier, like backdraft from the hellfire you unleashed." In that one sentence, I accurately summarized the fate of the vampires, which has taken an entire series of games to play out. So of course it isn't going to go into great detail. It's one sentence. But it was profound. Which is another kind of depth. And for reasons of your own you didn't want to face up to the truth it contains, so you labeled it superficial and quickly moved on to avoid dealing with how its depth may sweep some of your notions aside.
    When I wrote Superficial it is because of how you place things without giving them another light. Not because of what you wrote but because of the things that you place as if they're facts.
    Also, it's mainly because I don't like your fanfiction and I've explained why. For me it's way too superficial to even consider it a LoK piece and the fact that you're stating it as the only logical explanation or the way to see it alongside with your arrogance is my main drive to make a small effort of disagreeing with you.

    But what was the vampires' reward for "ending" the war with the pillars?
    Why do you have a need to find a "reward" in the first place? And they didn't "end" the war, they postponed it until the prophecy comes to the telling.

    They're still fighting a War Without End.
    That goes beyond, and finding a final solution to the problem of conflict is irrelevant. But I'd like to see that it does come to an end, I just don't see it being a kiss and make up false democracy. My own assumption is that the war started thanks to particular individuals. I see ancients as the victims. Whether it was EG or something else, I can't say and neither can you which great news indeed

    So we know what'll happen for the next 1000 years if Kain ignores the real problem again, or if he only bashes the hylden king. More neverending war. That's not progress, and progress is good.
    So what do you want, that aliens come and give uber knowledge of peace and loving?
    This is a grim story, finding a "solution" to the war by making huge bloodsheds is already irrelevant by itself and it wouldn't make a proper gaming material. Nor a book, for that matter. Unless you'd add some Feng-Sui to it. I mean, really, you're fantasizing too much about it. That such a hatred exist between vampires and Hylden is what gives fuel to the series. If that stops all you can do is make a PC benchmark with Nosgoths realm and look at the crows and SOME gothic architecture. Or Meridian. With some people yelling HELP ME KIND SIR.

    In a series that started with genocide, one way of showing progress would be to have it end with something new besides hylden extinction.
    HAHAHAHA. but why? It's DARK story with a lot of killing. I'd actually like to see Kain as someone completely eradicating an entire race. And I wouldn't bother nor care. I'd actually make a bbq to that! Because it's so cliche to kiss and make up for all the suffering over the years, drinking Nosgoths slivovitz and dropping tears. Urgh, I'd destroy a LoK Disc that has Hylden and Kain doing a peace-loving-unity-thingy. It's like seeing Batman and Joker rubbing each-other back in a commercial for dog food.

    Resolving this conflict is actually the one thing we've never seen anybody try!
    We've also never seen Mithrandir and Sauron playing chess. Although you COULD say that they kind of did.

    And I have grappled with this problem of how to forge the peace until I came up with a very realistic solution that uses much of the timeline to get the job done and it pays off well (not superficially). So smile and be happy. You may get to play it on Playstation 6 someday. If you're Okida and I offended you with an unflattering review of your early work long ago, you can stop following me around on the net now because I've become a fan. If you're not Okida, then just learn how to be a constructive critic with something to say that's worth hearing, and I promise to try reading another of your critiques in 6 months or so. Until then.
    Oh well... haha.

    You know, if nobody saw how to fix "a problem" of war between vampires and Hylden that doesn't mean that they can't. It's just stupid to do so and it won't make it an interesting material. Imagine kids from South Park growing up or Simpsons going all 3D. In fact, the whole idea of "bringing things to an end" is just making frustrations. Even like this, without proper ending is much better then anything we may think of simply because of the fact that we can think of all possibilities of how, what if and so on without actually being disappointed. Many wanted to see Kain and Umah together. I say that I adore how he killed her. Brings a strong perspective of his character. So, basically, I can't understand your little crusade against imaginary irregularities in LoK series.

    Oh, I'll just believe in your eloquent skills. Don't forget to write back in six months after you don't read this.

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