Thread: "Hub Play" - can it add to the Thief experience?

"Hub Play" - can it add to the Thief experience?

  1. #51
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    Originally Posted by BigBoss
    Yeah, it just so happens that I know all the people in the whole world who are ok with managing an inventory instead of a limitless bag. Are you really going to go with an argument as flimsy as that?
    There's a difference between tolerating something and genuinely enjoying something. If people played MMORPG's just so they got the thrill of managing their inventory, then there would be alot more of that than actual gameplay and action. The only gaming community that uses menus and UI to a massive extent are those that play RTS games, and those aren't games where immersion is a major factor - when you play an RTS you actively recognize that it's a game, and work to the best of your abilities to win. There is no suspension of disbelief, or walking in another character's shoes - you are simply managing the pieces of a complicated game of chess. Even then, if we could come up with a UI-less RTS game, I'm sure a good number of people would enjoy it more - literally commanding an army instead of clicking and dragging and right clicking could add a whole new level to gameplay. Being able to give squadrons commands without having to look at them or click their icon, and commanding a bases' construction and troop creations without having to select them.

    Inventory management has never been a selling point for a game, because normally it's instituted as a sort of balancing mechanism. Let us look, shall we?

    In TDS you had a limited inventory, all items save for loot having caps. If this wasn't implemented, the player could literally carry around an infinite number of any item, because loot respawned indefinitely, and items were stocked ad infinitum in shops. The respawning of the loot resource, along with the existence of an infinite supply of tools, required that your ability to carry those tools be limited, lest you breeze by every single level because you kept mugging people until you had enough arrows to gas/kill everyone in the missions.

    Many MMORPG's feature a limited inventory as a balancing mechanism to keep players on par with monsters, and to force them to take a break every now and again to interact with the world around them. If you never forced the player to go restock and sell items, then they'd get bored of constantly killing things. The breaks forced by a limited inventory make the action all the more fun, where it would otherwise become pure tedium. It also adds a layer of balance to PvP battles where if a player could hold an infinite number of healing/mana potions, they'd simply slaughter everyone else without end. The limited inventory means that no one can buy their way to unending victory.

    Sometimes, a limited inventory is about making an attempt at realism, despite the fact that a giant set of plate armor should not take up the same space as a ring.

    What would the player gain in a situation where their ability to carry loot is limited? Who are you seeking to balance them against?

    The player now has to retread familiar ground multiple times to get all the loot... oh there's now a guard there - fun. Too bad I already know the place like the back of my hand and can get around everyone. There's no danger of them having so much loot that they become the embodiment of power as long as their ability to buy tools is limited by the very existence of said tools. If there were only 30 possible gas arrows in the whole game, 12 of them bought in stores, and 100 health potions, 30 of which were found in stores, it wouldn't matter how much loot they had because they were instead limited to what they could do with said loot.

    Congrats; loot, the one thing in thief that's genuinely always supposed to be an up - a celebration, a "YAY I found loot!" - has become a chore. You've turned the smile and the sense of happiness at having found it into a drawn lip and a question of "can I even carry this?" Kudos for utterly ruining it.

    EDIT: On another note, I play D&D, which in essence is almost nothing but staring at text the entire time. I do get immersion, but the only moments I'm immersed are when I'm laying back and imagining things for myself - when I'm talking with other people or seeing the fight break out in the tavern. Rolling the dice and looking up a stat on my character sheet is not the moment I'm immersed but my immersion's breaking. However, I understand why the dice must be rolled and why you bother with a character sheet - sometimes you have to be able to fail and the world around you won't work perfectly the way you want to. It needs to be there as the conduit between your intended actions and what the world allows to happen. It's also kind of fun to roll dice... But it is not conducive to my immersion within those worlds - it is instead a necessary evil.
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  2. #52
    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    There's a difference between tolerating something and genuinely enjoying something. If people played MMORPG's just so they got the thrill of managing their inventory, then there would be alot more of that than actual gameplay and action.
    It's a subtle mechanic that goes without mention. You also don't see devs boasting about their innovations in their forum construction or huds or whatever

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    The only gaming community that uses menus and UI to a massive extent are those that play RTS games, and those aren't games where immersion is a major factor - when you play an RTS you actively recognize that it's a game, and work to the best of your abilities to win. There is no suspension of disbelief, or walking in another character's shoes - you are simply managing the pieces of a complicated game of chess. Even then, if we could come up with a UI-less RTS game, I'm sure a good number of people would enjoy it more - literally commanding an army instead of clicking and dragging and right clicking could add a whole new level to gameplay. Being able to give squadrons commands without having to look at them or click their icon, and commanding a bases' construction and troop creations without having to select them.
    They did do this in a game, it was called endwar, and it sucked horribly. Why you are even comparing a menu of an rts that never takes up more than a third of the screen, which can usually be minimized in modern games, to a full screen, toggled, inventory system doesn't make much sense.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    In TDS you had a limited inventory, all items save for loot having caps. If this wasn't implemented, the player could literally carry around an infinite number of any item, because loot respawned indefinitely, and items were stocked ad infinitum in shops. The respawning of the loot resource, along with the existence of an infinite supply of tools, required that your ability to carry those tools be limited, lest you breeze by every single level because you kept mugging people until you had enough arrows to gas/kill everyone in the missions.
    The main problem here is an imbalance of items and you're trying to blame it on Inventory management.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    Many MMORPG's feature a limited inventory as a balancing mechanism to keep players on par with monsters, and to force them to take a break every now and again to interact with the world around them. If you never forced the player to go restock and sell items, then they'd get bored of constantly killing things. The breaks forced by a limited inventory make the action all the more fun, where it would otherwise become pure tedium. It also adds a layer of balance to PvP battles where if a player could hold an infinite number of healing/mana potions, they'd simply slaughter everyone else without end. The limited inventory means that no one can buy their way to unending victory.
    It's definitely not, nor is it ever the inventories that the devs work on to pace action. Players are rewarded with lush landscapes, cut scenes, or new items to marvel at. The only valid point you bring up here is the pvp section, which is the exact same thing that you mentioned in the previous paragraph, which I already addressed.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    Sometimes, a limited inventory is about making an attempt at realism, despite the fact that a giant set of plate armor should not take up the same space as a ring.
    I don't know what games you're playing, but if you played any successful games like Diablo 1/2 or cult games like Arcanum, you would know that this is simply not the case. I know you'll bring up something like morrowind, but that used a system of weight per item to balance in the exact same way.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    The player now has to retread familiar ground multiple times to get all the loot... oh there's now a guard there - fun. Too bad I already know the place like the back of my hand and can get around everyone. There's no danger of them having so much loot that they become the embodiment of power as long as their ability to buy tools is limited by the very existence of said tools. If there were only 30 possible gas arrows in the whole game, 12 of them bought in stores, and 100 health potions, 30 of which were found in stores, it wouldn't matter how much loot they had because they were instead limited to what they could do with said loot.
    Clearly, you didn't read my posts on this thread and how I would go about addressing the issue of repetition, my reasoning behind it, and why I would implement such a system, so I'm not going to repeat myself

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    Congrats; loot, the one thing in thief that's genuinely always supposed to be an up - a celebration, a "YAY I found loot!" - has become a chore. You've turned the smile and the sense of happiness at having found it into a drawn lip and a question of "can I even carry this?" Kudos for utterly ruining it.
    I don't think you could possibly be any more dramatic. Finding loot in itself inevitably becomes a chore. You would know this if you were truly a "completionist". An inventory system would give loot more value if you didn't know how much there was, where it was, or if you could find it again.

    I was going to give you another chance to debate this with you after the whole "You and your friends are the only ones who like that, and I have more friends than you and they hate it!" nonsense. You aren't reading what I previously posted, so I'm not going to put forth this kind of energy again.
    FACT: I am definitely without a doubt........ the Truest Fan of the Thief franchise.

  3. #53
    There's an inventory tab in Amnesia and Penumbra. Those games are all about immersive experience, and the inventory didn't disturb my immersion in the least.

    On another matter, jtr mentioned he wouldn't like a pickpocket-minigame. Funnily enough, I just thought about one the other day.
    I thought it would be cool if we had one that would work something like this: Player should right-click in order to grab the victims purse (I know, I know, but please bear with me ). Then depending of the direction of approach, additional actions might be needed.
    When approaching from behind, the knife/dagger would be pulled out in order to cut the purse from victims belt, this would be by pressing left button (mouse) at the right time.
    Approaching front, only the actual frobbing should be timed properly - maybe one ought to "accidentally" bump into the victim.

    Admittedly, this thought is in its baby shoes. Thoughts? Improvements?
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  4. #54
    I have to agree with Bigboss on this one (although for some reason I usually don`t). An inventory system, especially a grid based one, can often add to the immersion of a game. Just think what would happen if you cut inventories from DeusEx!

    The Key here is that immersion is not only a visual thing. An inventory system gives you the feeling of being in control and that the objects you acquire are actually yours (you can look at them, play around and throw them away if you wish). It’s the same thing as a loadout screen in a combat flight sim: yes, it is a menu, but it is still vital for immersion simply because it makes you feel in control.

    That being said, I don’t know if I would like to se a massive inventory where Garret has stuffed all his stolen valuables during a mission. That would only put light to the fact that in reality he wouldn’t get away with much more than a few vases. But I’m not entirely against an inventory where you can manage your tools and arrows, especially if you have a limit on what you can carry so you have to plan ahead. Even a quick select belt, like the one from Deus Ex 1, is something that would fit thief well. But it has to be minimalistic, and not overly clutty. Also: no RPGish mumbo jumbo

    EDIT:
    Admittedly, this thought is in its baby shoes. Thoughts? Improvements?
    I would like to keep pickpocketing simple. So what about having to pick the pocket in the same physics based way you pick up stuff in Penumbra/Amnesia. The purse would be a bit "sticky" and unwilling to leave the belt, so you have to apply some force and jerk a little to get it loose. Once loose, the purse valuables are added to your loot.

    Maybe not realistic, but I think it would be simple and fun, plus mildly challenging. Also very immersive since everything is based around physics and motion, instead of QTE`s that requires special button pushing

  5. #55
    Originally Posted by GepardenK
    I would like to keep pickpocketing simple. So what about having to pick the pocket in the same physics based way you pick up stuff in Penumbra/Amnesia. The purse would be a bit "sticky" and unwilling to leave the belt, so you have to apply some force and jerk a little to get it loose. Once loose, the purse valuables are added to your loot.

    Maybe not realistic, but I think it would be simple and fun, plus mildly challenging. Also very immersive since everything is based around physics and motion, instead of QTE`s that requires special button pushing
    Thanks for your comment!

    I like your idea, but the Amnesia/Penumbra style of mechanics has a good chance to end up being a bit clumsy.

    I admit, my idea is QTE-ish. I think, however, that its use would be valid this time. I know many of the members shiver when they hear the phrase "quick time event" and my opinion on them isn't entirely positive, either. Over using QTE's usually ends up being boring and too easy, and over use of QTE's is way too often seen, so it's not totally unfounded.
    But if it was used on rare occasion, I think it might work. Use of this kind of feature would be valid, because trying to do a dynamic mechanic for the action with mouse in mind would probably just be clumsy.
    Why not keep it as it was? As has been said: to make it more challenging and interesting. I think there should be a more likely chance to get caught when pick pocketing someone.
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  6. #56
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    Anyone who uses the word immersion should be shot. Say what you really mean, don't use an ill-defined buzz-word.
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  7. #57
    I'd say "immersion" meant in the context of this discussion the sensation of being there, as it usually does when talking about Thief.
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  8. #58
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    Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion
    Anyone who uses the word immersion should be shot. Say what you really mean, don't use an ill-defined buzz-word.
    The problem is that everyone has their own definition of "immersion". For someone it might be graphics that are so realistic that the game looks like a movie. For me immersion is when the gameplay and control of the game are so well designed that you know exactly what your game character is capable of, and you don't even need to think to make things happen when using the controls, and very rarely you do something you didn't want to do. The game character becomes part of your nervous system. There is no quick action button next to a desk with a prompt: "Jump over desk" so you can never accidentally jump over a desk, just like nobody in the real world would accidentally do. You know you need to execute every move manually. Even though the screen is 2d with no depth perception, you know exactly how far you can jump or how much advance you need to take when firing the bow long distance. The absence of a visible player model in 1st person becomes the same as wearing clothes, because in the real world you instinctually move your body parts out of the way to see what's behind them, without even knowing, and the only way to notice it is to actively acknowledge that it's happening, just like with clothes. By just looking at a shadowy area you can immediately tell if it's dark enough to hide in.

    Sometimes with this type of immersion, it's actually an effect you can feel, but you can't think about it too much or it'll disappear. Sometimes when playing Thief, when you're well engaged in the game, the game can take over you. The LCD in front of you appears to stretch to the limits of your vision, and you start to feel the game world more than the actual world. The effect shatters immediately when a bug in the control scheme or a map design flaw sends you plummeting to your death. Because you know you did everything right, but the game tells you that you did something wrong. When the world you're in tells you something that's not true, the world you're in is not real.

  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by Nephthys
    and some people argue that the immersion is not defined by the perspective. I'm not saying that it's always right in third person, but games like Dead Space and Fable were fine. Fable started off third person and has remained that.

    my only point is that realism shouldn't define immersion.
    Although there is a big difference between stretching realism and doing the outright impossible. As someone pointed out, the leap of faith in Assassins Creed was totally impossible and therefore, broke the immersion of the game. Magic spells etc, stretches realism and allows a certain amount of artistic license but Fable for example, didn't push the boundaries of impossible feats along with it. This also includes shortcuts like a flying spell for Garrett that would negate the need for rope arrows, such a thing would totally ruin the immersion.

    For Garrett, knowledge is his power and even TDS having him use the glyphs went against his character. As a keeper, he has always had the ability to use glyphs but chose not to. As I see it, the glyphs were there for everyone to use if they had the knowledge, it wasn't a power that the keepers could grant or deny. As a former keeper, Garrett had knowledge of the glyphs but chose not to use them in his life as a thief.
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  10. #60
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    Garrett stormed out of his Acolyte graduation ceremony. He denied the ability, and didn't receive the ability until TDS.

  11. #61
    Originally Posted by Nightwynd
    Thanks for your comment!

    I like your idea, but the Amnesia/Penumbra style of mechanics has a good chance to end up being a bit clumsy.
    It’s true it might get clumsy, but maybe not if done right.

    How about this: You know how purses etc in T1/2 light up when you look at them, to let you know that you are ready to pickpocket it? Ok, same thing here. Except instead of pressing RMB to take it, you have to hold RMB. When you hold RMB the screen (your field of vision) will lock onto the purse and always follow it unless you get out of range. The mouse now controls the purse motion in 3d space relative to your position from the guy you are pick pocketing (just like manipulating a physic object in Penumbra). If you jerk the purse hard enough in the right direction, it will loosen and the loot is yours.

    I think this would give you a nice feeling when you sneak up to some guy and rip the purse out of his belt before disappearing into the dark again. It should be fast and easy, with less than a second of "purse manipulation with mouse"). Of course, this system would never work on consoles, so no chance of seeing it in game.

    Another pickpocket idea I had that was inspired by yours: Simply equip the knife and aim at a purse from a guard’s belt. When you slash (attack) with the knife the purse will loosen and fall towards the ground. You now have to press RMB to pick up the purse before it hits the floor, else the guard might hear it and turn around. Again: it’s not supposed to be hard (just LMB to slash and then RMB to pick up), it’s instead supposed to make you feel like a pesky purse thief from the dark.

  12. #62
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    It also takes extra time, trades one skill for another, and locks you into the mini-game to a degree, which is something freedom could do without.

  13. #63
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    Originally Posted by Nightwynd
    I'd say "immersion" meant in the context of this discussion the sensation of being there, as it usually does when talking about Thief.
    Yeah - that's usually what it means when I use it - simply my stepping into and then staying in someone else's shoes. Quite frankly, having to go through a giant screen of text or pictures, as a managable inventory would likely necessitate doesn't help me with that. Oblivion was immersive to an extent, but it was certainly not immersive while I was spending time calculating weight to gold ratios to determine what I wanted to throw out and what I wanted to pick up. (silverware rocked btw)

    People spend enough time trying to find all the loot in a mission, making multiple trips to fence it all just isn't a necessary burden to make them bear if they want to avoid micromanaging an inventory.

    Why not suggest that levels have a believable amount of loot instead? One should expect the player to fence it between missions before it becomes "hot" and loses it's value (and is then dumped by Garrett into an unnamed canal somewhere near the old quarter). I'm fine with our loot consisting more of things that a thief should want - forgoing the giant gold plated plates (irony) for the rings, jewels, silverware, and the nice, light-weight paintings that have been lovingly liberated from their frames. I'm fine with not carrying out a dozen bottles of wine and 10 golden spittoons. Garrett should not be dragging out a full suit of solid gold armor unless he's wearing it (god knows it wouldn't fit in a bag... actually, it could be rather fun too to have to try and escape in it.)

    Just... anything but forcing multiple trips or forcing me to worry about inventory space or weight. I want to enjoy looting places and the sleuth work behind actually finding it all, I play thief for the sneaking and the looting and the ironic blackjack moments and the ninny servants, and many other things. Leave micromanagement and tedium to Fallout and the like, please. Let me enjoy looting, it's the only utterly mindless enjoyment to be found among the tension and strategy thief has, and I love it for that reason.

    If you can't tell, you've struck an area of thief I'm truly passionate about. I'd be lying if I said I didn't see the gold emblazoned letters from across that Babbages and immediately want Thief for the sole reason of massive loots (I was a kid, forgive me for my simple desires). Destroying this would be destroying the reason I picked up the game in the first place, I would genuinely be sad.
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  14. #64
    I think it really just depends on whether or not the game is going for a realistic or authentic feel to it. This sums it up pretty much how I feel on it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiXOMWD3X-o

    And I know he's talking about rpg's but this is a generalization about games feeling real, so i think it's relevant
    FACT: I am definitely without a doubt........ the Truest Fan of the Thief franchise.

  15. #65
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    I'll trim the fat:

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    Why not suggest that levels have a believable amount of loot instead? One should expect the player to fence it between missions before it becomes "hot" and loses it's value (and is then dumped by Garrett into an unnamed canal somewhere near the old quarter). I'm fine with our loot consisting more of things that a thief should want - forgoing the giant gold plated plates (irony) for the rings, jewels, silverware, and the nice, light-weight paintings that have been lovingly liberated from their frames. I'm fine with not carrying out a dozen bottles of wine and 10 golden spittoons. Garrett should not be dragging out a full suit of solid gold armor unless he's wearing it (god knows it wouldn't fit in a bag... actually, it could be rather fun too to have to try and escape in it.)
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  16. #66
    Originally Posted by BigBoss
    I think it really just depends on whether or not the game is going for a realistic or authentic feel to it. This sums it up pretty much how I feel on it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiXOMWD3X-o

    And I know he's talking about rpg's but this is a generalization about games feeling real, so i think it's relevant
    IMHO it's not about realism. Okay, so realism can help, but the keyword here is credibility. How plausible something is, that's what's relevant.

    EDIT
    Originally Posted by GepardenK
    --Of course, this system would never work on consoles, so no chance of seeing it in game.
    You really had me going there. Alas, you're correct. Maybe if the PC version had its own mechanic - but that's unlikely

    Another pickpocket idea I had that was inspired by yours: Simply equip the knife and aim at a purse from a guard’s belt. When you slash (attack) with the knife the purse will loosen and fall towards the ground. You now have to press RMB to pick up the purse before it hits the floor, else the guard might hear it and turn around. Again: it’s not supposed to be hard (just LMB to slash and then RMB to pick up), it’s instead supposed to make you feel like a pesky purse thief from the dark.
    Would there be a probability of hitting the victim instead?
    ~You reap what you sow~

  17. #67
    On the loot matter (as opposed to the Hub matter):
    If an area like a Hub is used and revisited a few times (not retreaded 30 times, like in TDS), restrict respawning loot to small purses and such, and let people not be stupid; if someone has the coins stolen from their lockbox, the next day, have them move the lockbox, or place a bag of coins in their boot, or under the bed. OR, that loot doesn't respawn at all... once they are robbed, that's it. No infinite loot.

    On the matter of weapon/item limitation:
    Ever play Ultima Online waaaaay back? Just because you've managed to build up 25,000 gold pieces doesn't mean a merchant has something for you to buy. Hubs could limit what items are available for a series of missions; merchants/suppliers might only have 3 fire arrows or 2 mines. Period.

    On the matter of invetory system:
    One thing that has always kinda bugged in in Thief was that I could have a silent bag with 24 golden dinner plates (mind you, this is necessary for even having a game play experience!) but ... if I wanted to try to carry a rock upstairs to experiment with a pressure plate, I have to hold it out in front of me the whole time! I wouldn't mind being able to fish through a couple of non-loot, non-key items like that. One possibility I can think of is having a few "loot wheel" categories; a hot key that brings up an inventory (as your weapons and items do now). While it is tedious at times to cycle through my inventory, I kind of like the idea that Garrett is fishing though his pouches and pockets for something. The player's eyes are never taken away from the hallway as he/she cycles to look for that brass doorjamb he took from the cellar. In the original Resident Evil the player was simply limited by how many items could be carried in his pockets. Same idea here.

    However; while I wouldn't go as messy as Ultima 9, the idea of having to open a large bag that takes up half the screen and then pointing what items you are looking for can also add to immersion (defined as the feeling of being in the world and dealing with the world in a manner that doesn't feel "gamey"). If there are guards tromping about and I have to pull out my bag in the corner and shuffle through it, that can be a major part of feeling like I'm there. Especially if rummaging can make noise! I've always felt like guards shouldn't be able to tell your footsteps from anyone else's in a crowded street, but they should be able to hear you picking a lock in a quiet hall, and they could hear you rummaging in the same circumstance.

    On the matter of a "Garrett's Apartment" hub concept:
    I kinda like the idea of Garrett having an apartment to return to. In fact, there was really a feeling of violation when you finally get tracked down and kicked out. However, it is interesting how ill prepared Garrett is after all these years. :P I would like to think that there could be some aspects of a home turf that could use some of the elements of the world that felt lost to me; how it seemed water, fire, moss, and gas arrows seemed to occur naturally in some places. In other words, if Garret had a bush that was a gift from the Pagans that would grow a moss arrow between missions, or if the cave beneath his apartment grew a free water arrow, etc. Probably not a popular solution, but it would be nice to see Garrett better prepared considering what he has seen or endured.
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  18. #68
    I don't think he was talking about absolute realism, but rather a consistency in presentation. People sometimes struggle with this concept in the metal gear series where the minute to minute is the bleeding edge of authenticity and realism, and then suddenly a crazy boss battle. Make sense?
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  19. #69
    Originally Posted by BigBoss
    I don't think he was talking about absolute realism, but rather a consistency in presentation. People sometimes struggle with this concept in the metal gear series where the minute to minute is the bleeding edge of authenticity and realism, and then suddenly a crazy boss battle. Make sense?
    Perfect. That's pretty much what I thought, too. I was unsure how you felt about it, tho. I was actually mistaken that you meant absolute realism.
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  20. #70
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    Garrett has more than one place to go, and TMA had the most fleshed-out concepts. The apartment he looted Rampone's Dockside warehouses to make the rent for had a hidden cache of equipment and a key to the nearest safehouse in Shalebridge. The concept of safehouses was there, the closet full of goodies, the emergency escape plan, and the fact that it was a different place than TDP/Gold, and again in TDS, means that more than one mission could take place near such locations, without ever returning to any one of them, especially for small reasons that seem like an excuse to reuse a map or force the player through tedious retread. In both earlier titles, Garrett took what he needed for a mission, and the player could choose to add to it or not. No mission required anything more than what was already on Garrett's person. He was always prepared. TDS blurred the illusion of the passage of time between missions, eliminated more organic means of gathering info (which the fiction can explore with little restriction, while building it for the player to act out is incredibly restrictive), and had many more concepts tossed in, such as, allies preparing caches of equipment for him near the mission locale and marking it on the map they provided Garrett, or informants waiting at locations to hand over maps/keys/equipment/info, and of course, the aspect oft ignored in hub discussions: things going wrong, allies getting caught or killed or betraying Garrett, or missions in one location becoming mere preparation for a bigger mission on side-tracks that are the first wobble of the situation spiraling out of control. A hub makes object placement arbitrary, while closed missions with explorable surroundings allow the devs to balance resources and playstyles with objectives and challenges so Garrett isn't more over-powered than he already is.

  21. #71
    Originally Posted by Nightwynd
    Perfect. That's pretty much what I thought, too. I was unsure how you felt about it, tho. I was actually mistaken that you meant absolute realism.
    No, the point I'm getting at is that zombies and what have you are still approached with a sense of realism to them when the same realistic stealth system thief uses are applied to them as it is the guards ai or what have you. It's just random that inventory in that same world should be limitless when all other components are still based in that realities set of parameters.

    It's like if a game went for absolute realism, but then your character could also jump 25 ft in the air. Imo, It would totally ruin the immersion.
    FACT: I am definitely without a doubt........ the Truest Fan of the Thief franchise.

  22. #72
    The problem with a limited amount of loot imo is that you pick up alot of loot in Thief. The menu would be huge unless you could stack loot of the same sort on each other.

    Another thing is that you don't always know what value a specific loot has when you pick it up. So how are you going to know what loot to take if you are maxed out and see more loot? It might be that you think something looks valueable but it isnt worth nearly as much as the thing you just threw out. Paintings are especially hard.

    How should they solve this in that case? Should they have the value showing on the screen when you highlight something? Should they have the value when you look at the inventory? Should they have the value only when you sell stuff so you need to remember what's valuable?

    At any case, someone will put a list of it on the internet and I for one would have that list up all the time when I play Thief 4 if there was a max amount of loot.

    oh, and BigBoss should be a politician! He managed to make his point of view look right for me even though I don't agree with him. That is scary!
    ^This is a part of the core design and a fundamental of Thief!

  23. #73
    I wouldn't mind if there was some sort of an encumberance system.

    Here's my proposal for one:

    First off, all the loot in missions should be able to steal.
    Garrett could have different sorts of loot bags: One for gold, one for silver, one for jewels etc. etc.
    When they would be filled beyond a certain percentage, let's say 100% (could be less mind you), the loot would burden the player, reducing the movement speed.
    The speed would then be reduced along with the growing quantity of loot. Of course, movement speed mustn't be reduced beyond reason. 50% even would be quite a pain in the rear end. I'm not sure what would be a good minimum for movement speed, or how quickly the loot should burden the player.

    Also I don't think loot should be placed in inventory, a separate system would be needed.

    Other than loot, the inventory can be limited with scarcity of items. As it was with TDP and TMA. Of course, a more elaborate system could be implemented, but it won't be necessary with intelligently placed items and restricted availability. Still, wouldn't mind a grid based inventory or such.

    There could be a maximum cap for the total quantity of arrows. Say, 30 or 40 arrows at max? Something like that.

    Availability and scarcity should vary along with lines of difficulty, as could the limit for encumbering and arrow quantity.
    The amount of loot to steal could thus be measured with the filling of the loot bags. Less needed on lower difficulties etc.
    ~You reap what you sow~

  24. #74
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,157
    I think it is perfectly reasonable to have Acceptable Breaks From Reality like the ability to carry infinite loot without breaking any form of "immersion". It seems really strange to me that people can play video games as much as the people on this forum obviously do and not just be immune to caring about these sorts of things. It seems to me to be the sorts of the things that are only jarring if you let them be so.
    Follow the fortunes of the Thi4f Forum!

  25. #75
    Yes.

    I don't think an encumberance system would be necessary by any means.

    However, I recognize that it would add to challenge with a wholly new and interesting aspect for Thief.

    I have never played games for the sake of reality. In fact, I think one of the reasons I play games is just the opposite.
    ~You reap what you sow~

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