Thread: 3rd faction - Werewolves

3rd faction - Werewolves

  1. #51
    ^
    Yup...people just don't seem to get that...

  2. #52
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    Ugh, kill the lore by adding in more of the lore. That is what you are suggesting people aren't getting at.

    We do not know that there weren't humans in this era under Kain's rule cursed by Lycanthropy. That they didn't animate yet another enemy class in SR1 for Raziel to face is not the absence of the possibility, especially given that they existed in the Nosgoth that Kain conquered. There is no evidence of him wiping them all out. It would stand to reason, unless officially made clear otherwise, that these cursed humans, like humans cursed with vamparism after Moebius' efforts to wipe them out, are not extinct.

  3. #53
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    Ugh, kill the lore by adding in more of the lore. That is what you are suggesting people aren't getting at.

    We do not know that there weren't humans in this era under Kain's rule cursed by Lycanthropy. That they didn't animate yet another enemy class in SR1 for Raziel to face is not the absence of the possibility, especially given that they existed in the Nosgoth that Kain conquered. There is no evidence of him wiping them all out. It would stand to reason, unless officially made clear otherwise, that these cursed humans, like humans cursed with vamparism after Moebius' efforts to wipe them out, are not extinct.
    Indeed. The precedent has been set for them being able to exist in the LOK universe and now there's no evidence for *either* their survival *or* their extinction. There's literally no information to jump to any conclusions about whether they exist in this era.

    For situations like that, where there is precedent and no evidence one way or the other, it's entirely up to whoever the writer is at the time whether to include the subject in question.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  4. #54
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    Ugh, kill the lore by adding in more of the lore. That is what you are suggesting people aren't getting at.

    We do not know that there weren't humans in this era under Kain's rule cursed by Lycanthropy. That they didn't animate yet another enemy class in SR1 for Raziel to face is not the absence of the possibility, especially given that they existed in the Nosgoth that Kain conquered. There is no evidence of him wiping them all out. It would stand to reason, unless officially made clear otherwise, that these cursed humans, like humans cursed with vamparism after Moebius' efforts to wipe them out, are not extinct.
    You guys keep ignoring the smoke towers...I'm not saying the werewolves went extinct, i'm just saying they don't appear.
    Smoke towers = no moon rays = no human werewolves
    Only vampires could transform into werewolves at will. All human werewolves were strictly seen in those those "full moon secret areas" in BO. In my opinion, this means they needed the full moon to transform, which no longer is possible due to the smoke towers.

    I'm all in for the werewolves...i constantly complain that Kain doesn't use his werewolf form, and how they don't appear in any other game aside from BO...But that doesn't mean you can reintroduce them any way you like, ignoring the world/setting/context.

  5. #55
    Does the smoke cover the whole world?
    Do the clouds ever part?
    Are they thick enough to block out all light or is it more like on a very cloudy day?
    Is the werewolves transformation because of direct exposure to moonlight or it it the moon's gravitational position or something supernatural that has nothing to do with the light.

    There's just no information.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  6. #56
    I would rather like to see the fate of the werewolves remains unknown.
    While werewolves aren't against the lore per se, Nosgoth would make a clear, unmistakable statement about their existence and their faction and for me, werewolves always were loners instead of joining forces with someone.

    But the lost city as a battle arena would be a neat idea. :3

  7. #57
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    Heh, well, they've already taken a bigger leap than that by revealing that the Razielim survived long enough to grow wings.

    In this kind of situation, where you have an excuse to use something mostly untapped and interesting, I don't think any writer or designer would realistically decide to say "whoops, they're all dead, oh well". There's not really a thematic issue, a logic issue, or a flogging the dead horse issue here, like bringing back Vorador or the Sarafan for instance.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  8. #58
    I dont get few parts: Why need werewolfs moon rays to transform ?
    There was more variants of werewolf transformations in some cases they just didnt us 100% power without moon, but was able transofrm without problem. Werewolf did live all time transformed to werewolf form even under ground. Moust of time human is forced transforme under moon light, but say becose there is smoke covering 100% planet 24/7x365 days he can not transform dont sound right, more like advantage for werewolf, without direct moon rays he is not forced transforme and can stay under cover.

    +Im curious what other beasts and animals this realm hiding ? Have vampires or humans some animals useful for battlefield ?
    ( on action buttons ) Like:
    Noisy Bug, place on wall and when enemy go around make sound+paralyze human for moment. Can have diferent abilitys.
    Falcon vs flying vampires, point on vampire and whistle and he will make him fall on ground.
    Snake for vampires, move in line, when he reach human ( watching 99% roofs and sky ), bite him or splite poison.

    Us other animals like semi inteligent type of weapon ? or did humans and vampires kill all other specieses and can not be in game ?

  9. #59
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    Indeed, there was never a statement that they need moonlight, simply that when the moon is full, the moon doors open and you're able to access areas where they are most prevalent, like the Lost City and where you find the Lightning Spell. I don't think it matters, though. They still roam around the Lost City in the sunlight, if you stay in there past the night, for instance. I believe the one possibly in Vorador's Mansion is in transformed mode, whether, or not, the moon is full. I can't say for sure on that, though.


    However, as noted above by others, the smokestacks aren't 100% covering the entire sky with smoke so thick no light of any kind gets through. I mean, the sun gets through. The opening to SR1 is very much bathed in sunlight. Perhaps it's a bit more yellow, as if the light is diffused, but it's there. If you discount that as GlyphX just didn't get the memo of what lighting it was to be, then there are also the ingame shafts of light that you burn up fledglings with indoors. That's sunlight you're burning them with. Perhaps the smokestacks have faded more in the later days of the empire, but it seems more logical that they were simply used to diffuse the light to make it less of a problem for fledglings. However, they shouldn't be used to blot out all light. What would humans use to grow crops? While vampires keep them as slaves and for food, they certainly need them to keep living and breeding, so humans eating their veggies is a priority, I am sure. With the land systematically dying, slowly, food and the resources to maintain it grow ever more scarce. Vampires completely cutting off the sun would ensure their own demise, after the humans and all of the remaining livestock and plant-life on the planet died off from lack of sunlight first.

  10. #60
    A valid point...
    Although i could still argue that the fact that they are still in werewolf from in the sun is due to laziness...Since it would require an extra effort on the programmers etc etc. And was not worth it since they only appear in 2 areas, the Lost City and Lighting Spell Area (at least i only remember seeing them in these 2 places).

    Well, i guess it`s open to debate. There is nothing substantial about the werewolves in Nosgoth, aside that they exist and that this ability isn`t restricted to humans only.
    I still think that they were more of a secret and hard to find, so wouldn`t be right to make them as a Class. This would give the idea that they are common.

  11. #61
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    A valid point...
    Although i could still argue that the fact that they are still in werewolf from in the sun is due to laziness...Since it would require an extra effort on the programmers etc etc. And was not worth it since they only appear in 2 areas, the Lost City and Lighting Spell Area (at least i only remember seeing them in these 2 places).
    It seems like your weighting your opinion based on Hollywood werewolves; most of which are influenced by the 1941 film The Wolf Man. Not all werewolves need a full moon to transform.

    Vampires in LoK are so unique and far from your run of the mill Dracula variant; so why would you expect generic werewolves if they were added? I just don't see a reason to stifle the artist and designers by saying "I don't want werewolves."

  12. #62
    I see all this lore based discussion when (IMO) the more important issue is this:

    Nosgoth's humans vs. vampires equates to ranged vs. melee. If we throw in werewolves, they'll need to fit into one (or both) of the two factions ... or exist only as some intermediate wildcard faction in a game mode designed especially for their inclusion. Otherwise they'll just unbalance what is currently a very well balanced game, ruining Nosgoth's competitive potential.

  13. #63
    thats why im saying just make the werewolf class either on the vampire side or as a skin for the reaver or the tyrant it would be awesome and stick with the lore.

  14. #64
    Originally Posted by PencileyePirate
    I see all this lore based discussion when (IMO) the more important issue is this:

    Nosgoth's humans vs. vampires equates to ranged vs. melee. If we throw in werewolves, they'll need to fit into one (or both) of the two factions ... or exist only as some intermediate wildcard faction in a game mode designed especially for their inclusion. Otherwise they'll just unbalance what is currently a very well balanced game, ruining Nosgoth's competitive potential.
    ^^That is a much better reason for not including them. Like I said earlier, they might be suitable for certain game modes, but they could be difficult to fit into the existing ones without unbalancing the game. Also, while not against the lore, it's important to pick the right time and place to include them without over complicating the plot.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  15. #65
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    My notion above agrees with you, Paradoxical Omen, and all following, that it shouldn't probably be a new class. I think if something like it were implemented, again, just have it be a special ability that can be used maybe once per round on the human side, like a brief rage/invulnerable power mode, and once it's used, it's over. It could also be a special power that is random that any on the human team could use and only on a certain map (with a full moon). It would sure spice things up if suddenly, and without warning, one of the humans transforms and goes into a brief berserker mode. Even the Tyrant would be wise to not engage the werewolf until the transformation ends. Once it's over, the human would maybe have to hide to recover and would be vulnerable after this.

    Certainly, I doubt anything like this would be implemented until a while down the road anyway. It would be nice, though.

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    It seems like your weighting your opinion based on Hollywood werewolves; most of which are influenced by the 1941 film The Wolf Man. Not all werewolves need a full moon to transform.

    Vampires in LoK are so unique and far from your run of the mill Dracula variant; so why would you expect generic werewolves if they were added? I just don't see a reason to stifle the artist and designers by saying "I don't want werewolves."
    Didn't you read my whole post, dude? I explicitly agreed with that idea in the next paragraph:
    "Well, i guess it`s open to debate. There is nothing substantial about the werewolves in Nosgoth, aside that they exist and that this ability isn`t restricted to humans only."



    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    My notion above agrees with you, Paradoxical Omen, and all following, that it shouldn't probably be a new class. I think if something like it were implemented, again, just have it be a special ability that can be used maybe once per round on the human side, like a brief rage/invulnerable power mode, and once it's used, it's over. It could also be a special power that is random that any on the human team could use and only on a certain map (with a full moon). It would sure spice things up if suddenly, and without warning, one of the humans transforms and goes into a brief berserker mode. Even the Tyrant would be wise to not engage the werewolf until the transformation ends. Once it's over, the human would maybe have to hide to recover and would be vulnerable after this.

    Certainly, I doubt anything like this would be implemented until a while down the road anyway. It would be nice, though.
    The main reason i'm against Werewolf as a class is that it is a rare trait in Nosgoth, or least seems to be.
    They were only found in special locations and even among the vampires it wasn't common (the only know vampires to transform into werewolf are Kain and Vorador).

    Meh...but maybe i'm being too restrictive...
    For me it would be ideal for them to be reintroduced in a new ADVENTURE FOCUSED LoK game. In a setting such as, you are exploring a not well know region of Nosgoth and stumble upon them. Maybe re-finding a werewolf shrine, similar to the one in BO...

    Eh...i dunno...i just wish it to be well done, and not simply stuffed in the game out of nowhere...

  17. #67
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Does the smoke cover the whole world?
    Do the clouds ever part?
    Are they thick enough to block out all light or is it more like on a very cloudy day?
    Is the werewolves transformation because of direct exposure to moonlight or it it the moon's gravitational position or something supernatural that has nothing to do with the light.

    There's just no information.
    Going by SR1 era, even CENTURIES after this game, sunlight still breaks through the clouds, leading to Raziel being able to burn vamps to death with SUNLIGHT. So no, the smokestacks don't block out all light centuries after this game's timeline, and I'm betting they let a bit more light in now that humans are actively destroying all things vamp. Super fires that keep their young alive would most likely be high on the priority list for humans. I'm not putting anything for or against wolves, but lore-wise they could still change. More so now thanks to regular humans than previously even.

    Then you can take into account the fact that werewolves in LEGACY OF KAIN don't need the moon to change. Some people should learn the lore to SOME degree before they post ridiculous things like," Vamps are protected by werewolves". That's Underworld. Not LoK, so please, don't combine the two. That's like saying since all holy symbols work against vampires in ShadowRun, they should work in EVERYTHING with vampires. It's ridiculous, and kind of annoying. This isn't aimed at you Vampmaster, just saying to the community as a whole
    Last edited by Vallass; 7th Apr 2014 at 03:16.

  18. #68
    Originally Posted by Vallass
    Then you can take into account the fact that werewolves in LEGACY OF KAIN don't need the moon to change. Some people should learn the lore to SOME degree before they post ridiculous things like," Vamps are protected by werewolves". That's Underworld. Not LoK, so please, don't combine the two. That's like saying since all holy symbols work against vampires in ShadowRun, they should work in EVERYTHING with vampires. It's ridiculous, and kind of annoying. This isn't aimed at you Vampmaster, just saying to the community as a whole
    It was more for game purpose so werewolfs will stay on vampire side and dont change game play. There can be all time one werewolf clan ally for vampires and come up with story more suitet for legacy of Kain. I would like to see orginal transformation, but dont want some over drive for game play soo... new skin will be plenty if players like it. ( or like some one said +2 skins tyrant, reaver )

    About holy items and holy powers, i dont see problem have some character using them, it will work like all other weapons+diferent abilitys normal weapons can not have. ( dont tell me there is no specialist who can us holy weapons/relics, powers, symbols ( on scrols, paint on grounds symbol, atc... ) Who dont want see sky open and make AOE damage from sun light clasic weapon can not create and work basicaly same like arow barage ? ( special ability can be: ignite vampires on sun, if they dont evade it and stay on light )

  19. #69
    Originally Posted by SaturaxCZ
    It was more for game purpose so werewolfs will stay on vampire side and dont change game play. There can be all time one werewolf clan ally for vampires and come up with story more suitet for legacy of Kain. I would like to see orginal transformation, but dont want some over drive for game play soo... new skin will be plenty if players like it. ( or like some one said +2 skins tyrant, reaver )

    About holy items and holy powers, i dont see problem have some character using them, it will work like all other weapons+diferent abilitys normal weapons can not have. ( dont tell me there is no specialist who can us holy weapons/relics, powers, symbols ( on scrols, paint on grounds symbol, atc... ) Who dont want see sky open and make AOE damage from sun light clasic weapon can not create and work basicaly same like arow barage ? ( special ability can be: ignite vampires on sun, if they dont evade it and stay on light )
    Vampires can't be hurt by sunlight after they've grown out of fledgling state though. I love the holy class idea, I just meant that the vamps aren't hurt by holy items, otherwise humans would wear them on EVERYTHING there is. Holy powers or whatever are fine, just holy symbols don't really affect vamps. And as for the werewolves on vamp sides, I'd imagine if they're still alive they remember Kain and his unholy hell-rained down on their city. I doubt if they really wanna join the vamps.

    That being said, vamps turning into wolves is possible for mage class vamps, but I don't think true werewolves would be inclined to join the vampires. Especially since they're humans at times, and I don't think vamps would stop drinking blood on account of a little wofliness. Yea, it's a word now. Shut up.

  20. #70
    Originally Posted by Vallass
    Vampires can't be hurt by sunlight after they've grown out of fledgling state though.

    I just meant that the vamps aren't hurt by holy items, otherwise humans would wear them on EVERYTHING there is. Holy powers or whatever are fine, just holy symbols don't really affect vamps.
    Didnt know it so just area flesh to blind ? Im sure some one will find something more suited for it.

    I did mean it litl diferent, not like pasive protection against vampires just becose its HOLY , but user will us spiritual power/mana/will throught holy relic like spiritual tool/weapon. Throught make holy armor or repulsive item for few seconds sound interesting, meybe like support spell for frend in problem ( slowly pushing vampires from midle of gravity + damage/unable vampire suck blood after kill/mighty push, atc... There is definitely room for occult stuff )
    Bow is too just harmless tool until you give it in corect hands ---> <---- dont give it this guy

  21. #71
    Thinking of them being put into this game just makes me feel all tingly!!
    I really wish they would add them as a faction, tho I dough it would, story and all that stuff wise...
    BUT things about story's is they can do anything they want with them, all of a sudden they could appear with a hate to vampires, and humans could see them as a threat and attack them as well, giving them a reason to hate humans also.

  22. #72
    Originally Posted by ICantPauseItMom
    BUT things about story's is they can do anything they want with them
    Nope. A story has to follow continuity, internal logic, things like that.

    "WEREWOLVES APPEAR AND INEXPLICABLY WAR WITH VAMPIRES! HUMANS INEXPLICABLY FEEL THREATENED BY WEREWOLVES KILLING THEIR ENEMIES!" is not a good story.

    Also, just an observation but weren't the werewolves in BO1 mostly concentrated in the Lost City? That city that was accessed via a teleporter in the Lake of the Dead...In Nosgoth's era, no such teleporter exists as it presumably collapsed into the Abyss. Then there's the City itself which bares resemblance to ruins below the Abyss (in the Elder God's chamber), suggesting its destruction.

    So...They probably would be extinct now in the latter case...Or trapped in the former...
    Last edited by Ygdrasel; 8th Apr 2014 at 07:10.

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by Ygdrasel
    Nope. A story has to follow continuity, internal logic, things like that.

    "WEREWOLVES APPEAR AND INEXPLICABLY WAR WITH VAMPIRES! HUMANS INEXPLICABLY FEEL THREATENED BY WEREWOLVES KILLING THEIR ENEMIES!" is not a good story.

    Also, just an observation but weren't the werewolves in BO1 mostly concentrated in the Lost City? That city that was accessed via a teleporter in the Lake of the Dead...In Nosgoth's era, no such teleporter exists as it presumably collapsed into the Abyss. Then there's the City itself which bares resemblance to ruins below the Abyss (in the Elder God's chamber), suggesting its destruction.

    So...They probably would be extinct now in the latter case...Or trapped in the former...
    What about the ones in Dark Eden where Kain found the lightning spell? Also, even animals are smart enough to run away when the ground starts collapsing beneath their feet. There's no reason to assume that the lost city collapsed in a single massive event.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  24. #74
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    How unbelievably dull and uncreative it would be if the team spoke out and said they're extinct, heh.
    "A return to Nosgoth is not necessarily always welcome: only the attainment of that final gnosis will satisfy us." – Sam Zucchi

  25. #75
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    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    What about the ones in Dark Eden where Kain found the lightning spell? Also, even animals are smart enough to run away when the ground starts collapsing beneath their feet. There's no reason to assume that the lost city collapsed in a single massive event.
    The ones in Dark Eden (I suppose) may be dead. As the Watchers of Dark Eden are from (tadaaaaa) Dark Eden, I suppose they got the place cleaned of all dangers so they can live there. But Nosgoth is so big! There may be a werewolf village or something hidden around.
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