Thread: 3rd faction - Werewolves

3rd faction - Werewolves

  1. #26
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    Werewolves may be opposing to Lieutenants IF lieutenants happen to appear in Nosgoth, if no other idea come up.. Not, AT ALL, in any other case. It would break the game atmosphere, giving power to humans. The game is fun because humans know they can't stand vampires and take ranged weapons to try to get some advantage before they get too close =P That's why no human melee class should ever be released.
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  2. #27
    The reason they weren't in any games besides BO1 is most likely that:

    1. Their presence would get in the way of the existing story arcs.
    2. There wasn't time to implement them.

    That doesn't mean that anyone had specifically decided they don't exist. Raziel didn't explore every inch of the entire planet, so there no information to draw any conclusions.

    Note: I'm not really concerned about whether they appear in Nosgoth, I just don't see anything about it that's particularly plot breaking.
    Last edited by Vampmaster; 31st Mar 2014 at 22:45.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  3. #28
    Werewolves

    I`m waiting for Zephon`s Kids.

  4. #29
    Werewolves are in no way against the lore...
    Sure they only showed up in the first game, but nowhere was it said that they went extinct or anything of the like. My opinion is that it was just not the focus of the game(s) and was left aside.

    Secondly, although i do love the werewolves and got mad that they were never seen again, we have to remember that they don't qualify as an "alternate class". This because both humans and vampires can achieve the werewolf form.
    Kain and Vorador could transform, and also the humans inhabiting the lost city, for example.

  5. #30
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    Originally Posted by MasterShuriko
    I sense that you do not Know Nosgoth lore or any of the story in it, about it and its inhabitants.

    There are no Werewolves in Nosgoth.
    Incorrect
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_City
    http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Werewolves

  6. #31
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    I'm very glad to see that most rational people who know the lore defended werewolves.

    Shame it had to happen again, though.

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    Secondly, although i do love the werewolves and got mad that they were never seen again, we have to remember that they don't qualify as an "alternate class". This because both humans and vampires can achieve the werewolf form.
    Kain and Vorador could transform, and also the humans inhabiting the lost city, for example.
    Kain could also transform into a bat, but that doesn't make him a Werebat. I would argue that Kain and Vorador's transformative skills were a result of their vampirism, and that only humans can be true "werewolves." From the wiki:

    These lycanthropes fought him as wolves, but resumed human form when they died. This duality, however, seemed to be their natural, inherent state of being, whereas the vampires' Wolf Form was unnatural and magically-adopted.
    With that said, the only way I would support Werewolves in game would be as a human class.

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by vaalix
    I don't know if this would break any lore they are sticking to but I think 3 faction fighting each other in maps would be wicked fun..

    werewolf - warrior
    werewolf - stalker
    werewolf - ???
    no. just no.

  9. #34
    Originally Posted by The_Hylden
    I'm very glad to see that most rational people who know the lore defended werewolves.

    Shame it had to happen again, though.
    I think too many people are too hung up on how werewolves are portrayed in current media. I'm sure many want to distance Nosgoth from either the Underworld or Twilight romance centered franchises.

    If you do some research on werewolves though, there's plenty of folklore to build upon. With good direction, I'm sure an interesting lore for werewolves could be established within Nosgoth.

    Here's my logic; humans in Nosgoth have historically used whatever means at their disposal to kill vampires: steampunk, magic/eldritch energy, demon summoning and even time travel. So why wouldn't some of them resort to lycanthropy? The real problem, if implemented, is how to make a human werewolf use ranged weapons in order to keep the current asymmetrical gameplay.

  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
    I think too many people are too hung up on how werewolves are portrayed in current media. I'm sure many want to distance Nosgoth from either the Underworld or Twilight romance centered franchises.

    If you do some research on werewolves though, there's plenty of folklore to build upon. With good direction, I'm sure an interesting lore for werewolves could be established within Nosgoth.

    Here's my logic; humans in Nosgoth have historically used whatever means at their disposal to kill vampires: steampunk, magic/eldritch energy, demon summoning and even time travel. So why wouldn't some of them resort to lycanthropy? The real problem, if implemented, is how to make a human werewolf use ranged weapons in order to keep the current asymmetrical gameplay.
    Right. As they said, Werewolves are, in no way, against the lore. They are well-known by the fanbase, actually. But the assymetrical gameplay is something that needs to be kept, it is one of the biggest attractives to the non-old-times-fan community, which is the taget audience for this game (so the franchise would rise from the ashes, in the utopic future). Maybe in one specific game mode (and please don't do too many of them) there may be the werewolves. Otherwise, I would find it out of the atmosphere (even though, as an old-time fan of LoK, I found hard to believe that Nosgoth get me the fun that it's getting. I doubt nothing, anymore).
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  11. #36
    Werewolves dont need new fraction: Orginal purpose of werewolves was defend vampires over day, when they sleep and werewolfs was slaves/pets for vampires soo give 1 character of warewolves on vampire side will not harm anyone

    When i see planed over 10 new classes i dont think there is enought time creat new fraction + combat vampires vs werewolves will need lot of time remove all bugs, if it get in game... so meybe later in some big game update ? After all basic game parts and characters are finished ?

  12. #37
    Originally Posted by SaturaxCZ
    Orginal purpose of werewolves was defend vampires over day, when they sleep and werewolfs was slaves/pets for vampires
    That's only in certain franchises. As far as I know the myths evolved separately, so any franchise that uses both can make up it's own backstory for them.

    I don't think it's 10 new classes. There's 6 existing ones and then 6 new ones if they manage to include the 3 remaining clans plus 3 new human classes to balance things out.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  13. #38
    Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps... or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

    I do not mean to offend anyone but a current path should be followed... IMHO since no werewolf appeared in after-BO1 Nosgoth then tis should be kept in this game which is actually really close to the era mentioned above.

    Again no offense but that's the problem when newcomers, that do not have played the saga, start throwing random ideas about what sounds funny or cool to them...

    No disrespect to anyone, just my personal opinion.

  14. #39
    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    That's only in certain franchises. As far as I know the myths evolved separately, so any franchise that uses both can make up it's own backstory for them.

    I don't think it's 10 new classes. There's 6 existing ones and then 6 new ones if they manage to include the 3 remaining clans plus 3 new human classes to balance things out.
    I had fear about game mechanic: fight humans vs vampire, werewolves is without problem, becose they can us same/similar mechanic, but creat fight vampire vs werewolves can be tricky.

    For werewolfs serving vampires: You can easy creat own, not used story without franchise like: Old werewolf clan living in peace and harmony with nature deep in XXX mountains,behinde XXX forest, until humans come and start killing them just becose they looks like beast and call it justice ( no one did us it for sure becose its boring ), right before XXX werewolfs clan annihilation, they did find new ally: The vampire Lord XXX from XXX clan. Soo... they start fight humans together. I dont think its problem creat whatever new clan you wish for and end of story for werewolf clan like this will allow all werewolf models you wish for from: some rat werewolfs hated be vampires and serve in fear in nearby swamps around crypts, up to royal guard werewolfs with hight pride defending only oldest pure blood vampires lords for generations.... just come up with name and side story about 5-10 sentences. ( English is not my strong side, soo i will leave it for some one else with imagination and beter language skill ) My point is: why creat some good story for action game, creat bad story to get character in action game is what is count, or not ?

    + i think orginal saga is full of holes and leave place for imagination, say it was not in saga so dont give it here, Ok i respect it... but if players want werewolfs and game is not based on story... is it realy problem? Of course i hope it will not walk down from main path, but +1 worewolf character dont sound like much problem... soo meybe creat some poll for players if they want it or not ?
    Last edited by SaturaxCZ; 2nd Apr 2014 at 12:50.

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by NickTsiou
    Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps... or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

    I do not mean to offend anyone but a current path should be followed... IMHO since no werewolf appeared in after-BO1 Nosgoth then tis should be kept in this game which is actually really close to the era mentioned above.

    Again no offense but that's the problem when newcomers, that do not have played the saga, start throwing random ideas about what sounds funny or cool to them...

    No disrespect to anyone, just my personal opinion.
    I think including Demons in this game just isn't right...They didn't appear in the SR era.
    They still exist of course, but they haven't been able to enter Nosgoth since BO2 if i'm not mistaken. This because Kain closed the portal to their realm in the end of BO2. After this start the SR era, with Kain rising the 6 lieutenants etc etc...and in this era the Hylden and Demons aren't seen anymore.


    As for the werewolves, i am not against the idea that they still exist in SR era...but frankly, if they did, it's more likely that they are hidden somewhere like in the "Lost City" (since they are nowhere to be seen).
    I also had another theory that i dunno if it is plausible...
    Werewolves probably didn't appear anymore due to the smoke towers that blocked out the sun AND the moon rays.
    Last edited by ParadoxicalOmen; 2nd Apr 2014 at 13:05.

  16. #41
    Originally Posted by NickTsiou
    Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps... or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

    I do not mean to offend anyone but a current path should be followed... IMHO since no werewolf appeared in after-BO1 Nosgoth then tis should be kept in this game which is actually really close to the era mentioned above.

    Again no offense but that's the problem when newcomers, that do not have played the saga, start throwing random ideas about what sounds funny or cool to them...

    No disrespect to anyone, just my personal opinion.
    Was that directed at me, since I was the one who said about Raziel not exploring the whole planet? Alright, point taken. Werewolves are fantasy creatures and not even in the same genre as vampires and absence of proof is proof of absence and it was just a joke/mistake that they were added to BO1 in the first place. Happy?
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  17. #42
    Aside from saga what you guys expect from werewolfs in game ? When i think about it... its basicaly the same gameplay like curent vampires, so what new powers specialy for werewolfes would be interesting ? I tought about tracking like: hightlight blood, steps of humans or scent in air, but when i think about some realy orginal powers werewolf was basicly strong, ressistant, fast regenerate, atc... so its like vampire tyrant... ( give vampire tracking ability is posible too... so its not 100% werewolfs only )
    Last edited by SaturaxCZ; 2nd Apr 2014 at 14:45.

  18. #43
    Originally Posted by SaturaxCZ
    Aside from saga what you guys expect from werewolfs in game ? When i think about it... its basicaly the same gameplay like curent vampires, so what new powers specialy for werewolfes would be interesting ? I tought about tracking like: hightlight blood, steps of humans or scent in air, but when i think about some realy orginal powers werewolf was basicly strong, ressistant, fast regenerate, atc... so its like vampire tyrant... ( give vampire tracking ability is posible too... so its not 100% werewolfs only )
    Highlighting blood trails to follow a human would be an interesting vampire skill, though.
    Last edited by Xenonetix; 2nd Apr 2014 at 16:11.

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by NickTsiou
    Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps...
    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    I think including Demons in this game just isn't right...They didn't appear in the SR era.
    Actually... there were plans to have a human boss that summoned monster/demons in SR1, the Priestess. Unfortunately it was cut due to time/budget constraints.

    I'm not arguing for a summoning class, just stating that there is so much more lore to the LoK series that most don't realize.

    Originally Posted by ParadoxicalOmen
    They still exist of course, but they haven't been able to enter Nosgoth since BO2 if i'm not mistaken. This because Kain closed the portal to their realm in the end of BO2. After this start the SR era, with Kain rising the 6 lieutenants etc etc...and in this era the Hylden and Demons aren't seen anymore.
    Nosgoth takes place before any time paradoxes occur (the ones cause by Raziel anyway), and the devs are making their gameplay/lore choices based on this premise.

  20. #45
    Amy had previously said this era was unaffected by the paradoxes, so it wouldn't make any difference.

    There were at least two timelines where demons existed in Nosgoth without the hylden gate being open and with the binding still intact. They were at Avernus in the original timeline when Azimuth was summoning them, then in SR2 where Moebius sends Raziel forward instead of back to Janos' time period and then in that period too after Janos died. Sure time had been altered by Raziel sparing Kain, but just like how Raziel said that killing Kain's future self wouldn't alter the past events, sparing him shouldn't either.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  21. #46
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    Originally Posted by NickTsiou
    or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?
    While not meaning to offend, you're sounding most condescending and comparing apples to oranges to exaggerate your point. Werewolves were very present in the current map explored by Kain. No other creature you mention here was. Werewolves are just as much a horror trope as vampires, which fairies, dwarfs, aliens, and Leprechauns usually are either in the fantasy, or sci-fi categories, and certainly are far devoid from this conversation, since they've never appeared in the games, nor ever have been even mentioned in any game. So, why use them as examples?

    Since werewolves were otherwise human, they would make sense for the human class to have as a special power, if nothing else. No-one is saying they must be implemented. However, if it were, somehow, it would not be out of place, nor should it be off-putting for any newcomer. I mean, if you can't take a human transforming into a werewolf, but you can somehow take vampires flying, or launching themselves up into the air and landing with enough force to crack open the earth, etc., etc., then there's something odd at play.


    As for demon summoning, that would not be out of place either. Human already have traps they can set. A demon that is summoned and acts as a trap to tear apart vampires, instead of a turret, or bomb, certainly would work. It fits not only with BO1, where the entirety of Avernus was overrun by demons Azimuth and her followers summoned, but in the last game seen in the series, Defiance, where the followers of Azimuth and Mortanius, the Cenobites, directly summon demons to attack both Raziel and Kain within Avernus Cathedral. So, kudos in your jest for coming up with a very good suggestion

    Originally Posted by Vampmaster
    Werewolves are fantasy creatures and not even in the same genre as vampires and absence of proof is proof of absence and it was just a joke/mistake that they were added to BO1 in the first place. Happy?

    While I get that you're making a sarcastic point in rebuttal of Nick above, Vampmaster, I'll just note here once more for any who may actually believe this that werewolves are completely NOT fantasy trope creatures and are just as much horror monsters as vampires are. In fact, as we've all bore witness to a certain history of them linked by others before months ago, vampire and werewolves perhaps even spawned from the same idea in our actual world thousands of years ago, but they were thought of at the very least for similar reasons.


    On the subject of them being used, as I noted in the previous thread I believe, they would not have to be a separate faction, but could be a power bought for any human class (since any human really should be able to be cursed as a werewolf), and used sparingly, as a one-off power once per match maybe (you transform briefly, and while in this form you can reek some havoc, but then it's over and possibly leaves you weakened in the downtime to recover, so your human would have to get out of fire fast), perhaps working best on maps where it is night, or the moon is out.


    These are just ideas. I do think it best that they get the existing game working and I know they're working hard on that. There are always possibilities for the future that should not be discounted, however.


    Note on demons and timelines: they are in every timeline. Even past the last paradox of SR2, the one that engendered BO2's events, this led to them still being summoned in Avernus, as I mentioned, and also demons are brought through the gate in BO2 by the Hylden.

  22. #47
    I would actually like to see werewolves maybe give the game a horde mode where both Vamps & Humans work together against the Werewolfs. Another the other option allow the human team to pick between playing as the vampire or human Faction to battle the werewolves.
    (Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend)
    Last edited by TheIgHero; 3rd Apr 2014 at 01:54.

  23. #48
    werewolves in this game would be awesome Also i have an idea that i think would be more fair and easier to implement into the game... what about just making a werewolf skin for the reaver? if you think about it most of his moves would be cool as a werewolf and it wouldnt mess with anything balance wise. and as a human it would at some variaty to the monsterrs your slaying.

  24. #49
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    Originally Posted by kushmankilla
    werewolves in this game would be awesome Also i have an idea that i think would be more fair and easier to implement into the game... what about just making a werewolf skin for the reaver? if you think about it most of his moves would be cool as a werewolf and it wouldnt mess with anything balance wise. and as a human it would at some variaty to the monsterrs your slaying.
    But don't you think it would feel awkward to have a werewolf among vampires?
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  25. #50
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    Cool idea but it will kill the Nosgoth lore

    During the Kain's Empire there were only 2 factions: humand and vampires.

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