View Poll Results: Opinion on All-Star Batman & Robin #1-10

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  • Liked it

    12 60.00%
  • Mixed feelings.

    5 25.00%
  • Disliked it.

    3 15.00%
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Thread: All Star Batman & Robin discussion thread

All Star Batman & Robin discussion thread

  1. #1

    All Star Batman & Robin discussion thread

    I've been wanting to pick it up since I've read that although it's a non traditional take on Batman, some find it to be awesome, while others find it to be crap. So if you've read the book or have heard anything about it, please feel free to respond. But please, provide a detailed description beyond yes or no. Thanks.

    BTW accidently posted in PC forum, my bad

    EDIT: This is now a discussion forum. I read the book and I love it!

  2. #2
    Should you continue to breathe oxygen? The answer is yes, yes you should. Especially if you like Frank's other works, its a good "prequel" series to The Dark Knight Returns.
    W.W.B.D. What Would Batman Do?

  3. #3
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    It's over hated because people ignore the fact it's an elseworld. It's not suppose to be your usual Batman, but the Frank Miller Dark Knight Batman, so alot of people simply have decided to hate upon this book for a silly reason: They bought an elseworld title, and excepted it to be like the mainstream Batman.

    Now is the book perfect? Ofcourse not! "Dick Grayson, Age Twelve" is one of the most repeated things in the book that you can't deny its abit bad writing, the pacing is the best when it comes to Batman's development from the Bat-crazed lunatic to the more stable man, but the very early issues have Batman all gone wrong, but hey why is this? Because the man has had a solo war againts the freaks of Gotham. Ofcourse it has effected his mind! Gotham is full of corrupt cops and Gordon can only assist him in so small ways, so yeah Batman is incredibly rough upon Dick Grayson at the start, but he starts to realize what an awful being he is, so hes becoming more human thruouth the story.

    Sadly the first trade only collects the first 9 issues, but the series will (finally) conclude starting February 2011, why has it taken this long you ponder? Jim Lee took too many projects including DCUO that took all his time.

    So should you read it? Yes if you enjoy Frank Miller's take on characters such as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and so forth. The Justice League appear briefly, along with Joker and other criminals. This really is "Robin: Year One" or "Batman: Year Three" for Frank Miller's Dark Knight Universe.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Matches Malone
    Should you continue to breathe oxygen? The answer is yes, yes you should. Especially if you like Frank's other works, its a good "prequel" series to The Dark Knight Returns.
    That's great, but what's so awesome about it? Thanks again for replying

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    It's over hated because people ignore the fact it's an elseworld. It's not suppose to be your usual Batman, but the Frank Miller Dark Knight Batman, so alot of people simply have decided to hate upon this book for a silly reason: They bought an elseworld title, and excepted it to be like the mainstream Batman.

    Now is the book perfect? Ofcourse not! "Dick Grayson, Age Twelve" is one of the most repeated things in the book that you can't deny its abit bad writing, the pacing is the best when it comes to Batman's development from the Bat-crazed lunatic to the more stable man, but the very early issues have Batman all gone wrong, but hey why is this? Because the man has had a solo war againts the freaks of Gotham. Ofcourse it has effected his mind! Gotham is full of corrupt cops and Gordon can only assist him in so small ways, so yeah Batman is incredibly rough upon Dick Grayson at the start, but he starts to realize what an awful being he is, so hes becoming more human thruouth the story.

    Sadly the first trade only collects the first 9 issues, but the series will (finally) conclude starting February 2011, why has it taken this long you ponder? Jim Lee took too many projects including DCUO that took all his time.

    So should you read it? Yes if you enjoy Frank Miller's take on characters such as Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and so forth. The Justice League appear briefly, along with Joker and other criminals. This really is "Robin: Year One" or "Batman: Year Three" for Frank Miller's Dark Knight Universe.
    So how many issues are there exactly? And I've read that the dialogue is repetitive on purpose, and that it has something to do with Miller parodying his previous works and bringing back the grotesque to writing. Thanks

  6. #6
    Well my favorite book of all time it The Dark Knight Returns. I like Batman to be large, confident, violent & slightly crazy. Its basically more of what I love from The Dark Knight Returns but its Bruce as a younger man. You have read The Dark Knight Returns.

    Drazar is very right in that its over-hated. I don't really understand how you could love The Dark Knight Returns & hate All Star. But oh well
    W.W.B.D. What Would Batman Do?

  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by A Dark Knight
    So how many issues are there exactly? And I've read that the dialogue is repetitive on purpose, and that it has something to do with Miller parodying his previous works and bringing back the grotesque to writing. Thanks
    There will be 16 issues total, so 2 trades... Most definatly 1 ultimate collection trade aswell. The series is actually getting a renamed to Dark Knight: Boy Wonder because as i said, alot of people excepted all-star Batman to be a "usual Batman" story but instead got the Frank Miller Batman.

    Dark Knight: Boy Wonder #1 comes in February 2011, this is basically "all-star batman and robin" #11.

    So again if you enjoy Frank Miller's Batman, then get it. Art is great, Batman's inner monologue and character development (in other words: getting sane) while Dick Grayson is in all of this. The book also shows James Gordon still having his relationship issues Sarah Essen and his wife, while also Barbara Gordon (the niece) being Batgirl! It also shows Black Canary, JLA and the Joker! Also a certain nazi makes a cameo.

    Also Dick Grayson's first year in this serie is VERY disturbing and dark, so if you don't wanna get scared, don't get it. Frank Miller *wanted* to shock people by showing how crazed Batman had gone for 3 years of crime fightning all by himself, which is really understandable, since his friend Harvey turned into Two-Face and his love interest Catwoman does crime aswell.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    There will be 16 issues total, so 2 trades... Most definatly 1 ultimate collection trade aswell. The series is actually getting a renamed to Dark Knight: Boy Wonder because as i said, alot of people excepted all-star Batman to be a "usual Batman" story but instead got the Frank Miller Batman.

    Dark Knight: Boy Wonder #1 comes in February 2011, this is basically "all-star batman and robin" #11.

    So again if you enjoy Frank Miller's Batman, then get it. Art is great, Batman's inner monologue and character development (in other words: getting sane) while Dick Grayson is in all of this. The book also shows James Gordon still having his relationship issues Sarah Essen and his wife, while also Barbara Gordon (the niece) being Batgirl! It also shows Black Canary, JLA and the Joker! Also a certain nazi makes a cameo.

    Also Dick Grayson's first year in this serie is VERY disturbing and dark, so if you don't wanna get scared, don't get it. Frank Miller *wanted* to shock people by showing how crazed Batman had gone for 3 years of crime fightning all by himself, which is really understandable, since his friend Harvey turned into Two-Face and his love interest Catwoman does crime aswell.
    So should I just hold off in getting Issue #10 and wait for Volume 2 of the series next year or just buy Issue #10 from Amazon? I will be getting Volume 1 since you guys clinched it for me. Thanks again

  9. #9
    I say skip it. Not out of any "Oh this isn't my Batman so it sucks" kneejerk reaction. I just think it has terrible pacing, goofy dialog and none of the characters are really interesting. Its like a Batman comic a 14 year old would write immediately after reading The Dark Knight Returns (which is an awesome book).

    The art is good but thats not worth buying the book for.
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    I say skip it. Not out of any "Oh this isn't my Batman so it sucks" kneejerk reaction. I just think it has terrible pacing, goofy dialog and none of the characters are really interesting. Its like a Batman comic a 14 year old would write immediately after reading The Dark Knight Returns (which is an awesome book).

    The art is good but thats not worth buying the book for.
    I completely disagree, Ben. I'm loving this book, not surprising since I AM a Frank Miller fan.

  11. #11
    I'm a Miller fan too, but the book just seems so juvenile to me. And not the fun kind of juvenile. The "lets fill the panel with Vicky Vale's ass because she is just that damn sexy" juvenile.
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  12. #12
    Sometimes you just have to let go.Don't expect a literary masterpiece,have fun,and enjoy it for what it is.All-Star is an over the top,good time.I look at it this way,where Watchmen is the Oscar winner,ALL-Star is the fun,summer popcorn movie that you just have to like for what it is.
    signature image

  13. #13
    Well the way I see it theres enough well written stuff out there that I shouldn't have to lower myself to read what is in my opinion garbage. If I wanna read Batman stories that exist more for empty entertainment over literary mastery there is still better written stuff than ASBAR, like the TAS comic they had out. Or the Brave and the Bold series.
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by batfan08
    Sometimes you just have to let go.Don't expect a literary masterpiece,have fun,and enjoy it for what it is.All-Star is an over the top,good time.I look at it this way,where Watchmen is the Oscar winner,ALL-Star is the fun,summer popcorn movie that you just have to like for what it is.
    I think the writing and art are top notch, but it's all based on opinion.

  15. #15
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    If people only seet as a summer movie style story, they're missing out alot of the inner monologue and character dialogue. The whole story shows Batman's progression, Dick's establishment to Bruce's world, shows us how dirty Gotham city still is, how Gordon with all the stress from work and his wife being drunk, still takes care of her Daughter who happens to know about Sarah. Barbara knows that her adoptive father loves Sarah and comforts her father by telling her to call her when Gordon is at the peak of his stress.

    We also see Batman very vulnurable here, he's taken Robin onto his holy war on crime, while putting the kid on these ridicilous dangerous situations withouth realizin he had all these years to grief and prepare, he sees his earlier mistakes such as making Dick survive in the cave (which he did himself, during year 1-2) withouth anyone's assistance, ofcourse Alfred shows us how much he cares for the family and assists Dick, and we see how thruouth worried Alfred has always been about Bruce's health, yet he continously assists Bruce on these missions.

    There is alot of emotion, development and threat at stake around Gotham from the criminals to JLA's presence questioning Batman. It's all there readable in the comic book.

  16. #16
    No,I think people are misunderstanding me.What I meant is that you need to just like it for what it is,you can't make something extraordinarily deep out of it because in all honesty,it's not.
    signature image

  17. #17
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    So a book that deals about Batman's world, how Dick Grayson is trying to fit in to this crazed man's holy war, the JLA seeing Batman as a possible threat to the superhero image, Black Canary's early years, Joker's crime spree, James Gordon ever conflicting personal life, Batgirl's rise and fall among with Batman's personal vulnurabilities among his loved one's near death isn't deep?

    What is deep writing, if not this?

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    If people only seet as a summer movie style story, they're missing out alot of the inner monologue and character dialogue. The whole story shows Batman's progression, Dick's establishment to Bruce's world, shows us how dirty Gotham city still is, how Gordon with all the stress from work and his wife being drunk, still takes care of her Daughter who happens to know about Sarah. Barbara knows that her adoptive father loves Sarah and comforts her father by telling her to call her when Gordon is at the peak of his stress.

    We also see Batman very vulnurable here, he's taken Robin onto his holy war on crime, while putting the kid on these ridicilous dangerous situations withouth realizin he had all these years to grief and prepare, he sees his earlier mistakes such as making Dick survive in the cave (which he did himself, during year 1-2) withouth anyone's assistance, ofcourse Alfred shows us how much he cares for the family and assists Dick, and we see how thruouth worried Alfred has always been about Bruce's health, yet he continously assists Bruce on these missions.

    There is alot of emotion, development and threat at stake around Gotham from the criminals to JLA's presence questioning Batman. It's all there readable in the comic book.
    Agreed

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    So a book that deals about Batman's world, how Dick Grayson is trying to fit in to this crazed man's holy war, the JLA seeing Batman as a possible threat to the superhero image, Black Canary's early years, Joker's crime spree, James Gordon ever conflicting personal life, Batgirl's rise and fall among with Batman's personal vulnurabilities among his loved one's near death isn't deep?

    What is deep writing, if not this?
    This is why I don't understand haters/dislikers of the book. They come up with stupid complaints and then have no evidence to back them. The exception for this is the pacing, characters, and art. That's all just opinion.

  20. #20
    I'm not gonna say the book doesn't cover some deep ground or present good ideas. I think it does. I just think it covers them badly and it comes out reading like corny self-parody rather than good literature. The art is gorgeous (Jim Lee always delivers) but thats about it. I can't really offer any deeper analysis of it (or the issues I have. I don't have issue 11) but I might read it again and try to get my head around it.
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    I'm not gonna say the book doesn't cover some deep ground or present good ideas. I think it does. I just think it covers them badly and it comes out reading like corny self-parody rather than good literature. The art is gorgeous (Jim Lee always delivers) but thats about it. I can't really offer any deeper analysis of it (or the issues I have. I don't have issue 11) but I might read it again and try to get my head around it.
    What's so bad about it? Please do tell us.

  22. #22
    The dialog, for one thing. Batgirl dropping the F-bomb every other word, the repitition of stupid phrases like "Dick Grayson, age 12", and of course the "Are you retarded or something?!" line. The dialog in the book is very cheesy and, like the rest of the book, sounds like its written by a 14 year old who just read The Dark Knight Returns (I've said this before and I'll say it again).

    I've already mentioned the pacing so theres no need to go into detail with that.

    The whole thing is like a caricature, particularly the characters. Superman and Green Lantern are overly "goodie goodie" and stupid, Batman is overly aggressive and sadistic, the Joker is overly humourless (double negative *es!) and charmless, Batgirl is overly... I don't know what the hell Batgirl is but whatever it is its too much. Wonder Woman is a strawman feminist taken to the extremes. Black Canary and Vicky Vale's sole purpose tends to be eye candy. Buff Alfred?! The only character who doesn't seem like a trainwreck is Robin and Robin is the only character I can care about because hes the only character that doesn't seem to be a massive douche nozzle, though that might be because he spends half his screen time wondering what the hells going on.

    Yes, I get it. Batman is dealing with serious PTSD so he's gotta be a psychotic jerkass (though somehow he is more sane in TDKR than here. Maybe Miller will address this...). But there is such a thing as taking it too far and thats what the book does, and thats what brings it into cartoon land. Thats what makes it read like a self-parody. Doesn't help that the artwork is basically devoted to making the characters look as epic as possible in every panel (by Miller's direction). Everything is well drawn, but the pictures aren't really saying anything and don't seem to have a purpose other than to look cool.

    To me it really is just summer popcorn. There are deeper meanings in the background but in order to access and appreciate those meanings you have to get past whats going on in the foreground and whats going on in the foreground is just flash that I personally have to turn my brain off to enjoy. And if I turn my brain off when I'm reading it how can I appreciate the deeper side to it?
    "Sleep? That bed is a coffin and those are winding sheets. I do not sleep I die." - Captain Ahab

  23. #23
    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    The dialog, for one thing. Batgirl dropping the F-bomb every other word, the repitition of stupid phrases like "Dick Grayson, age 12", and of course the "Are you retarded or something?!" line. The dialog in the book is very cheesy and, like the rest of the book, sounds like its written by a 14 year old who just read The Dark Knight Returns (I've said this before and I'll say it again).

    I've already mentioned the pacing so theres no need to go into detail with that.

    The whole thing is like a caricature, particularly the characters. Superman and Green Lantern are overly "goodie goodie" and stupid, Batman is overly aggressive and sadistic, the Joker is overly humourless (double negative *es!) and charmless, Batgirl is overly... I don't know what the hell Batgirl is but whatever it is its too much. Wonder Woman is a strawman feminist taken to the extremes. Black Canary and Vicky Vale's sole purpose tends to be eye candy. Buff Alfred?! The only character who doesn't seem like a trainwreck is Robin and Robin is the only character I can care about because hes the only character that doesn't seem to be a massive douche nozzle, though that might be because he spends half his screen time wondering what the hells going on.

    Yes, I get it. Batman is dealing with serious PTSD so he's gotta be a psychotic jerkass (though somehow he is more sane in TDKR than here. Maybe Miller will address this...). But there is such a thing as taking it too far and thats what the book does, and thats what brings it into cartoon land. Thats what makes it read like a self-parody. Doesn't help that the artwork is basically devoted to making the characters look as epic as possible in every panel (by Miller's direction). Everything is well drawn, but the pictures aren't really saying anything and don't seem to have a purpose other than to look cool.

    To me it really is just summer popcorn. There are deeper meanings in the background but in order to access and appreciate those meanings you have to get past whats going on in the foreground and whats going on in the foreground is just flash that I personally have to turn my brain off to enjoy. And if I turn my brain off when I'm reading it how can I appreciate the deeper side to it?
    Well, like I said, sorry if I sounded hostile, it is an opinion. . And I can understand that you may find it tasteless, but others, such as myself, find it tasteful. I thought the book was intentionally hilarious and like it or not, these are Frank Miller's characters! All the little connections to The Dark Knight Returns were great and the series has yet to end. I'll personally be picking up the new issues when they start coming back around February 2011. Like Drazar said, this is an Elseworld/alternate universe tale. The characters aren't going to be exactly how you want them. You do realize that the book is basically from Dick's perspective, right? That might be why it seems like a "caricature" to you. That's why everything seems out of proportion and/or crazy. But I loved the book, it was a great read and I plan on picking up the new issues.

  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi
    The dialog, for one thing. Batgirl dropping the F-bomb every other word,
    Teenagers on a adrelina rush often swear, don't you think? TDKR & TDKSA also had alot of swearing. Pimps insulting women, the mutant who kidnaps a poor little child insults, Yindel gets insulted, Green Arrow shares his views on facists, and alot of other swearings is going all thruouth all Miller's Batman books. Was the f-bomb really that bad, now that you think of it?
    the repitition of stupid phrases like "Dick Grayson, age 12",
    Haha it's funny. I never noticed this until i was told about it, and when i re-read it i was just giggling. I have to ponder, why is it so much repeated?
    and of course the "Are you retarded or something?!" line.
    Well we all know Batman's state. The guy is pretty much all about his unbridled rage, but he realizes this finally when he sees what he almost turned Dick into, when Hal Jordan was facing death.

    The dialog in the book is very cheesy and, like the rest of the book, sounds like its written by a 14 year old who just read The Dark Knight Returns
    Theres alot of cheesy comedy from the dialogue, yes. Just like TDKR had weird slang, President Reagan comparing Batman and Superman. It's Miller's comedy and well, not all comedy is for everyone. So each for their own.

    I've already mentioned the pacing so theres no need to go into detail with that.
    What makes you feel it's bad? Theres incredibly much happening that pretty much surrounds Dick Grayson's first year. We see his parents death, his training, catching his parents killer and his grief from losing his parents. We see how the Boy Wonder's introduction effects Batman and Alfred. Superman and the JLA are getting worried about Batman taking a child side-kick and are overall worried about the image Batman gives about superheroes, so they send in Hal Jordan to talk to him. We see slowly, but firmly Batman becoming more human, realizing what a god damn awful monster he is. The guy is in shock what he realizes he almost turned Dick into. We truly see the effect of why Batman needs a Robin.

    And i'm not even grasping the Gordon family and Black Canary subplots here. So what is wrong about the pacing, again?

    Superman and Green Lantern are overly "goodie goodie" and stupid,
    Just like Superman was always in Miller's universe until in TDKSA. Stupid? Yeah Hal Jordan was shown as very naive, he eventually even gives up the whole superhero thing, when he's leaving earth guess what Batman is doing? Begging for GL to not leave. Trying to tell that they can win this fight againts corruption. The introduction between Hal and Batman is so intriquing, especially when we know how it all ends, but we see the build up here.
    Batman is overly aggressive and sadistic
    He's starting to enjoy breaking bones and so on from all the criminals. You often do see him beating up corrupt cops. Even in Year One detective Flass hears Batman laugh.

    the Joker is overly humourless
    The way Bob Kane and Bill Finger created him. Miller's Joker is overly humourless, but just a downright evil person.

    charmless, Batgirl is overly... I don't know what the hell Batgirl is but whatever it is its too much.
    She is a optimistic but naive teenager whos inspired by Batman to fight the scum of Gotham, but she's also a loving daughter towards Gordon and even helps him out, telling him to call out Sarah when Gordon is most depressed. She is a teenage crime fighter with an attitude.

    Wonder Woman is a strawman feminist taken to the extremes.
    Miller's Diana is a fierce warrior first, ambassador second. She takes a warrior's stance when she sees Batman being a threat to the superhero image, and knows how many insecure men there are. She laughs at them and shows how fierce she is.
    Black Canary and Vicky Vale's sole purpose tends to be eye candy.
    Black Canary is fightning crime in Gotham City, she's also shown as a momentary love interest for Batman, which is another thing from the earlier comics that Miller is tributing. If it's true that we might see Green Arrow in Dark Knight: Boy Wonder, we might finally see their relationship beginning in the Miller universe.
    Buff Alfred?!
    To each for their own.

    Now alot of these things we have to remind ourselves. This is Miller's take on these characters. If you're not comfortable with it, then theres always the mainstream comics.
    (though somehow he is more sane in TDKR than here. Maybe Miller will address this...).
    Miller explained that in Amazing Heroes #102. He seems different in Batman: Year One because he was very young and inexperienced. But as silentflute points out, it's certainly the same person.

    "The 55-year-old Batman of Dark Knight is very different from the 25-year-old Batman of 'Batman: Year One.'" Miller explains. "He's very young, very enthusiastic. He may be Batman at his most joyful. He's a young man. He's also a Batman who makes a lot of mistakes. He's a young man who charges out thinking he can change the world on his own. He learns that he can't. He finds out that the abilities of one man are limited, even an extraordinary man like him. No matter how skilled you are, if the numbers are against you, you need a psychological advantage, which is what the bat costume gives him. Even as he learns the bat-symbolism to scare people, he finds himself very quickly outnumbered."

    In Wizard #162, Jim Lee and Dan DiDio explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin: "It's Batman in his prime!" Lee says excitedly. "Batman is more of an S.O.B. than in Batman: Year One. I think he's tougher; more of a force of nature. Don't stand in his way because nothing is going to stop him." "Batman has also never experienced the lose of a partner (as Batman in Dark Knight Returns had)," DiDio adds. "He's in the process of training someone to stand by his side while he perfects his craft."

    Miller himself explained about Batman in All-Star Batman & Robin to Newarama:
    “Anything I come up with about any of these characters is DKU,” Miller said. “DC winds up adopting just about all of it, anyway.." In his Dark Knight work, Miller has given readers a glimpse into the twilight years of Batman’s career. In Batman: Year One, he’s shared the beginning of the Batman saga. So where does All-Star Batman fall in his Batman time-table? “Year Three. Bats is feeling his oats—very young, maybe acting a little crazy, but he knows exactly what he's doing. He's just a bit sloppier about doing it than he's going to eventually get.” - Frank Miller.
    http://forum.newsarama.com/showthrea...threadid=27218
    "This is Dick Grayson's initiation and he's dealing with a very stern teacher. Batman is a hard teacher - unforgiving. Brutal." - Frank Miller.
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=4436
    "He is a dick. He dresses up like a bat, and throws people through windows nightly. His only human contact is with a cranky butler. Now he’s got a twelve year old boy on his hands, and he’s trying to play daddy, and it ain’t going to work. Of course he’s a dick." - Frank Miller.

    "He explains it to Alfred in the story, saying, “I’m a young man, but I won’t always be young, and the mission has to continue.” Robin is his apprentice. He's training his replacement. That's the life he intends for Robin. Of course Alfred's reaction is, "I'm dyspeptic!" and is horrified that Bruce would do such a thing, and even, if he did something like that, admit it out loud. Alfred already has to deal with this nutcase as a boss, and now he has to worry about a kid as well. Batman had been watching Dick Grayson because he was the most talented kid he'd seen yet. I felt that somebody finally had to explain why he would bring a kid into his world. Bruce was going to wait, as he puts it, “Until the kid was old enough to shave.” He was planning on taking him under his wing in maybe another six years, but instead, he has to do it when the kid is still too young for the job. It was the murder of Dick Grayson's parents that forced his hand. There's always banter back and forth, where Robin thinks that a lot of the stuff Batman does is old fashioned and weird.

    I love the "Boy Wonder" line, before he was turned into the Teen Wonder, and almost a "Grim Robin." But I just love the idea of a young Robin. That's why I created Carrie Kelley in Dark Knight - I just loved the contrast between this stocky, tough, dark adult, and a colorful little pixie running around.

    Also – if you're older than 12, are you going to come up with that costume? Do you think Bruce would? Robin creates "Robin," essentially. Bruce hadn't thought this thing through enough, given that he was somewhat "forced" to take Robin in before he – both Bruce, and Dick – were ready. Handling a kid? That's kind of outside his purview – somewhere outside of what he trained himself for. So he's struggling with the whole thing."
    http://classic.newsarama.com/dcnew/B...tmanRobin.html

    In Comics Interview #31, Miller explained about Batman in Batman: Dark Knight Returns:

    "During the ten years that he isn't Batman that precede this series (after Jason Todd's death), he's a dead man," explains Miller. "Bruce Wayne goes through the motions but there's no one home. In the beginning of the series in fact, Bruce refers to Batman as "him." During the ten years that he hasn't been Batman he's gotten into racing cars. But he was born to be Batman, and whatever Bruce Wayne might have been is completely irrelevant. Bruce Wayne is Batman's host body. Bruce Wayne died when his parents go blown away. He really loves fighting crime. He's fighting what is in his mind a holy war. In my series I put forth the idea that he was always going to be Batman, that his parents murder was as inevitable as him putting the costume on. In fact, I have an incident earlier in his life that foreshadows what's going to happen to him (when he falls down into the cave as a child and meets the bats). Fate.

    Batman's methods can't be nice. Much of what he does to criminals is staged like a horror movie. He's the hero who acts like a villain - the epitome of the Dionysian hero, just as Superman - the Appollonian hero. In Christian terms, Batman commits evil to fight evil. And the whole problem with Batman is that he makes no compromises along the way. When he comes out of retirement he acts exactly as he did before. Except he's a bit less patient now because he's only got a certain amount of time left. The central conflict is the world versus Batman.

    I stress that Superman and Batman are enemies, and that Superman and Batman have been enemies for decades. They've never liked each other. Batman has tremendous contempt for Superman because he's such a "good boy," because he takes orders, from the President, among other people. Superman is something of a federal agent. And Superman, frankly, is scared of Batman. Because Batman represents to a certain extent, his own dark side. Which Superman doesn't want to look at. They imply completely different points of view. Superman implies a benevolent world - Batman implies a malevolent world. I cannot see two personalities like that getting along, acting friendly.

    Originally, my feeling was much like many other people's - I had always thought that Robin was a real pain-in-the-ass, but I now realize what a brilliant creation it was, because it really does give a human context to Batman's character. If Batman is done properly, he's such a powerhouse that he needs a restraining figure - and just a human being to be with him, especially a brightly-colored child, as perverse an idea as it is that a grown man would drag a child into the bullets!"

    Miller explained to Comic Book Resources about Batman in DK2:
    "In the first Dark Knight, Bruce was a very self destructive, tortured man," explains Miller. "He was endlessly angry. When this story begins, three years have passed and he looks younger than he did in the first Dark Knight. He is strangely happy and at peace. He is a much more powerful figure and he has been tested. Every hero has to be tested, that's how they're defined. Batman's trained all his troops underground and is finally reemerging to bring back the glory boys to save the day."
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=192
    http://archive.comicdom.gr/interviews.php?id=17&lang=en
    http://www.4thletter.net/2009/04/son...-miller-x-tcj/

    So in each Miller Batman series we see Batman change somewhat like an actual person would, but he still always remains consistent as well. It's certainly the same person. Each series are chapters into his life.
    But there is such a thing as taking it too far and thats what the book does, and thats what brings it into cartoon land. Thats what makes it read like a self-parody.
    What exactly makes this a parody? Is it the god damn thing? The one liners?

    To me it really is just summer popcorn. There are deeper meanings in the background but in order to access and appreciate those meanings you have to get past whats going on in the foreground and whats going on in the foreground is just flash that I personally have to turn my brain off to enjoy. And if I turn my brain off when I'm reading it how can I appreciate the deeper side to it?
    Deeper meanings in the background? Do we consider inner monologue as background now? There is alot of deeper things going around, one of the prominent and emotional ones being presented here as an example:






    All these are emotional moments that develop the characters thruouth the story. They are important moments that define these characters. From Batman remember his love Selina from Canary's kiss, to now seeing her loved one near death... He wishes to tell her he loves her, but his obsession with his war on crime doesn't allow him. Gordon's wife is in the hospital and his daughter tells him to call his true love... All deep moments that define these characters.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by Drazar
    Teenagers on a adrelina rush often swear, don't you think? TDKR & TDKSA also had alot of swearing. Pimps insulting women, the mutant who kidnaps a poor little child insults, Yindel gets insulted, Green Arrow shares his views on facists, and alot of other swearings is going all thruouth all Miller's Batman books. Was the f-bomb really that bad, now that you think of it?


    Haha it's funny. I never noticed this until i was told about it, and when i re-read it i was just giggling. I have to ponder, why is it so much repeated?


    Well we all know Batman's state. The guy is pretty much all about his unbridled rage, but he realizes this finally when he sees what he almost turned Dick into, when Hal Jordan was facing death.



    Theres alot of cheesy comedy from the dialogue, yes. Just like TDKR had weird slang, President Reagan comparing Batman and Superman. It's Miller's comedy and well, not all comedy is for everyone. So each for their own.



    What makes you feel it's bad? Theres incredibly much happening that pretty much surrounds Dick Grayson's first year. We see his parents death, his training, catching his parents killer and his grief from losing his parents. We see how the Boy Wonder's introduction effects Batman and Alfred. Superman and the JLA are getting worried about Batman taking a child side-kick and are overall worried about the image Batman gives about superheroes, so they send in Hal Jordan to talk to him. We see slowly, but firmly Batman becoming more human, realizing what a god damn awful monster he is. The guy is in shock what he realizes he almost turned Dick into. We truly see the effect of why Batman needs a Robin.

    And i'm not even grasping the Gordon family and Black Canary subplots here. So what is wrong about the pacing, again?



    Just like Superman was always in Miller's universe until in TDKSA. Stupid? Yeah Hal Jordan was shown as very naive, he eventually even gives up the whole superhero thing, when he's leaving earth guess what Batman is doing? Begging for GL to not leave. Trying to tell that they can win this fight againts corruption. The introduction between Hal and Batman is so intriquing, especially when we know how it all ends, but we see the build up here.


    He's starting to enjoy breaking bones and so on from all the criminals. You often do see him beating up corrupt cops. Even in Year One detective Flass hears Batman laugh.



    The way Bob Kane and Bill Finger created him. Miller's Joker is overly humourless, but just a downright evil person.



    She is a optimistic but naive teenager whos inspired by Batman to fight the scum of Gotham, but she's also a loving daughter towards Gordon and even helps him out, telling him to call out Sarah when Gordon is most depressed. She is a teenage crime fighter with an attitude.



    Miller's Diana is a fierce warrior first, ambassador second. She takes a warrior's stance when she sees Batman being a threat to the superhero image, and knows how many insecure men there are. She laughs at them and shows how fierce she is.


    Black Canary is fightning crime in Gotham City, she's also shown as a momentary love interest for Batman, which is another thing from the earlier comics that Miller is tributing. If it's true that we might see Green Arrow in Dark Knight: Boy Wonder, we might finally see their relationship beginning in the Miller universe.


    To each for their own.

    Now alot of these things we have to remind ourselves. This is Miller's take on these characters. If you're not comfortable with it, then theres always the mainstream comics.





    What exactly makes this a parody? Is it the god damn thing? The one liners?



    Deeper meanings in the background? Do we consider inner monologue as background now? There is alot of deeper things going around, one of the prominent and emotional ones being presented here as an example:






    All these are emotional moments that develop the characters thruouth the story. They are important moments that define these characters. From Batman remember his love Selina from Canary's kiss, to now seeing her loved one near death... He wishes to tell her he loves her, but his obsession with his war on crime doesn't allow him. Gordon's wife is in the hospital and his daughter tells him to call his true love... All deep moments that define these characters.
    I just had that "he's in my head" kind of feeling. I can't help but agree with all these points. And Drazar, did you seriously give ASBAR a 3.5/5? I thought you liked the book more than that and thought it deserved an 8 or a 9. For me it's a 9

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