Thread: "THIEF" - Your current THOUGHTS & SUGGESTIONS & CONCERNS - All General Discussion

"THIEF" - Your current THOUGHTS & SUGGESTIONS & CONCERNS - All General Discussion

  1. #2601

  2. #2602
    Glad to hear it.

    I just want to make clear that we don't have it out for you guys. We love Thief, we will defend our ideas of what makes a great Thief game vigorously, but we don't want to cross the line into nastiness.

  3. #2603
    Originally Posted by knox140
    Good call. I love to debate about the game, I've been spending more and more time on these forums recently. People cross the line at points when they say that they actually WANT the game to fail, I think.
    I wouldn't call it harassment if you say you want the game to fail. If the game is as bad as it seems, I'd rather it failed to avoid a string of even worse sequels. Harassing the developers to me is making it personal. Which I haven't seen here, at least.

    But yeah, I agree, harassing the developers is not cool.

  4. #2604
    Originally Posted by argan1985
    I wouldn't call it harassment if you say you want the game to fail. If the game is as bad as it seems, I'd rather it failed to avoid a string of even worse sequels. Harassing the developers to me is making it personal. Which I haven't seen here, at least.

    But yeah, I agree, harassing the developers is not cool.
    I think saying you actually WANT a game to fail implies you want the studio to lose money, probably putting a lot of the developers out of a job. I think a string of sequels that you don't have to play is better than seeing someone go unemployed because you didn't like the game they made.

  5. #2605
    Still, that's very far from harassment.

  6. #2606
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    Originally Posted by argan1985
    I wouldn't call it harassment if you say you want the game to fail. If the game is as bad as it seems, I'd rather it failed to avoid a string of even worse sequels. Harassing the developers to me is making it personal. Which I haven't seen here, at least.

    But yeah, I agree, harassing the developers is not cool.
    People putting years of their lives into a project (and often enough, those are years away from their families) and someone wishing that project to fail isn't harrassment? It's their life, their time, and their livelihood. How is that not personal?
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  7. #2607
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    Hardly surprising. We've built personality cults around bullies for so long we forget how toxic it can truly get. You raise people on talk radio and television, for two or three generations, and then you suddenly give them a way to broadcast themselves at large, and anyone is surprised by the results?

    Combine this with a complete lack of empowerment in the social spheres of society, immense and complex government structures, an unprecedented level of cynicism, and the end result is a pack of wolves hungry for blood on the most mundane subjects.

    You'd be surprised the kind of security detail surrounds some journalists, both online and in person. But those guys, they went from news broadcasters to opinion makers and bloggers, at the worse possible moment in our communication history. It's as if no one suspected or foresaw how perfectly aligned the elements were getting for catastrophic results, and jumped into the cyclone packing dynamite. This is true for every possible sphere of the public world, including of course game making.

    Seeing how the internet has drastically changed in ten years, especially more so in the last five, I would like to tell developers out there to hang on tight and strap themselves to whatever they can. Things are not about to get better. People say it's the Far Web now, they know nothing. It was the Far Web ten years ago, and things were great. Now it's the so-called civilised world, everyone is invested in it, everyone wants a piece, and everyone wants a public image online and offline. We were safe from this online before, now we have to deal with scum on the web as well as the grocery store.
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  8. #2608
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    Well said, Frank.

    Rob Fahey wrote an article recently called "Enough of the game media shock jocks" that expands a bit on this point that I particularly enjoyed. In the past few years there has been this type of game media that thrives on this same sort of toxic and repugnant cynicism, and I really just can't stand it. It was highlighted recently by the Phil Fish thing (not that Fish is exactly a saint in this regard).

    Makes me miss Roger Ebert even more. He may not have been a game critic (or even proponent for that matter) but the guy actually loved his media. Even when presented with a bad film, he didn't tear it apart for the sake of bashing it. Instead he seemed more like a father who was disappointed with his child.
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  9. #2609
    Nice thread.

    It's a shame it's come to this really, but it's not looking good for this game from a core/hardcore gamer's perspective.

    We'll see come release. I hope everybody is proven wrong.
    If all these controversial design decisions have been made in the name of accessibility then I can only say I am disappointed. You only need objective markers, highlighting, regenerating health, hints and aim assist as toggleable bools in the menu. Everything else is a little overkill. If you really must you can simplify some aspects of the game exclusive to easy/normal modes. Puzzles, platforming, combat, anything can be made easier exclusive to the lower difficulties only. Why not design Thief as the "hardcore" experience you first claimed it to be, then focus on accessibilty afterwards. I've done this before in a FPS mini-game game I made: on easy mode arrows appeared on walls showing the player the way, and invisible/hidden objects were unhidden to assist with platforming sections, along with the usual health value alterations of course.
    This allowed me to create the game I truly wanted whilst catering to a wider audience.
    Why "professional" developers do not do this I'll never understand. Instead so called 'AAA' games are often built from the ground up as simplistic offerings, yet statistics show that gamers actually want depth more often than not.

    Oh, and for the record Thief was never really hardcore, not by my standards anyway

  10. #2610
    Originally Posted by Jerion
    People putting years of their lives into a project (and often enough, those are years away from their families) and someone wishing that project to fail isn't harrassment? It's their life, their time, and their livelihood. How is that not personal?
    Because voting with out wallets is our only feedback that is sure to be heard. If I choose not to buy a game, then I am expressing my opinion that a game does not deserve my money. If enough people agree, then the game fails. I do not, and would not, hope for people to lose jobs, or studios to close. Just because people invest time into something does not mean it should automatically succeed. I wish the world worked that way, but it doesnt. If I am unhappy with a product, then of course I do not want it to be a huge success. If I did, then how could I possibly hope for a better attempt later?

    EDIT: Just to be clear, I am in no way condoning any kind of harassment. For that reason, I do not like the implication that those who do not support a product, or actively express a dislike for a product, are in some way participating in harassment.

  11. #2611
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    As usual.... I'm just chilled about it all.
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  12. #2612
    Originally Posted by Jerion
    People putting years of their lives into a project (and often enough, those are years away from their families) and someone wishing that project to fail isn't harrassment? It's their life, their time, and their livelihood. How is that not personal?
    Because the human cost is coincidental. I see a new Thief game, I don't like what I'm seeing, I don't want to see more of it in the future, so I hope that I don't. I don't have a vendetta against anyone because they're a component of the Thi4f machine - I have a vendetta against the machine as a whole. I'd much sooner blame Square than Eidos, but it's more effective to blame Eidos because they can be influenced to do things like put rope arrows into the game, or have a better combat system than V.A.T.S from Fallout 3. It's a shame, but if my livelihood was dependent on bastardizing something that people really like, I'd expect a bit more than some hot criticism, which is the worst that we've seen.

  13. #2613
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    Originally Posted by Astro
    Because the human cost is coincidental. I see a new Thief game, I don't like what I'm seeing, I don't want to see more of it in the future, so I hope that I don't. I don't have a vendetta against anyone because they're a component of the Thi4f machine - I have a vendetta against the machine as a whole. I'd much sooner blame Square than Eidos, but it's more effective to blame Eidos because they can be influenced to do things like put rope arrows into the game, or have a better combat system than V.A.T.S from Fallout 3. It's a shame, but if my livelihood was dependent on bastardizing something that people really like, I'd expect a bit more than some hot criticism, which is the worst that we've seen.
    Soooo you don't have a vendetta, you're just callous?
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  14. #2614
    If it's callous to constructively criticize, or say "I don't like this", because it doesn't consider the feelings of people making it whose only relationship with me is that they're actively bastardizing something that I like, then yes, I'm callous.

  15. #2615
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    People are too emotionally attached and invested in things/areas they shouldn't be.

    I've said this before in a classic post and I'll say it again, humans act in the interest of self and people only care about the end results. It is VERY HARD for people, who aren't playing in your space or line of work, to understand the hard work that goes into content creation. I might also add that for too long the PC community contributed to this very problem so you can blame them for a lot of this.

  16. #2616
    Originally Posted by HERESY
    I might also add that for too long the PC community contributed to this very problem so you can blame them for a lot of this.
    Care to elaborate?

  17. #2617
    Originally Posted by HERESY
    I've said this before in a classic post and I'll say it again...
    A classic post?

    Originally Posted by HERESY
    ...humans act in the interest of self and people only care about the end results
    This is as insightful as noting that the sky is blue. Obviously people who do not participate in an activity cannot fully relate to those that do. The issue is not whether people care, or if they care too much, or if they have the right to care as much as they do. The issue is expressing those thoughts and emotions in an appropriate manner.

  18. #2618
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    Originally Posted by Specter
    A classic post?



    This is as insightful as noting that the sky is blue. Obviously people who do not participate in an activity cannot fully relate to those that do. The issue is not whether people care, or if they care too much, or if they have the right to care as much as they do. The issue is expressing those thoughts and emotions in an appropriate manner.
    LT;MR

  19. #2619
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    I suggest that this thread should be closed before some actual harrassers get any ideas. There are no preventative measures to this problem, so I don't see much value in discussing this. It's only relevant when it is happening or has already happened. To me the possibility of someone threatening EM for its decisions regarding Thief didn't even cross my mind until someone brought it up.

  20. #2620
    Originally Posted by Specter
    Because voting with out wallets is our only feedback that is sure to be heard. If I choose not to buy a game, then I am expressing my opinion that a game does not deserve my money. If enough people agree, then the game fails. I do not, and would not, hope for people to lose jobs, or studios to close. Just because people invest time into something does not mean it should automatically succeed. I wish the world worked that way, but it doesnt. If I am unhappy with a product, then of course I do not want it to be a huge success. If I did, then how could I possibly hope for a better attempt later?

    EDIT: Just to be clear, I am in no way condoning any kind of harassment. For that reason, I do not like the implication that those who do not support a product, or actively express a dislike for a product, are in some way participating in harassment.
    Exactly. If the game is bad, and it fails, it's a wake-up call that the design decisions were not liked. Nobody would be glad that people lose their jobs.

  21. #2621
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    All I really have to say on this subject is that things sometimes get taken too far, and I've certainly seen it happen here.

    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    I suggest that this thread should be closed before some actual harrassers get any ideas. There are no preventative measures to this problem, so I don't see much value in discussing this. It's only relevant when it is happening or has already happened. To me the possibility of someone threatening EM for its decisions regarding Thief didn't even cross my mind until someone brought it up.
    It's a problem, and locking the thread up isn't going to make it go away. The discussion seems to be serving a good, thought provoking purpose at the moment.

  22. #2622
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    Originally Posted by spyhopping
    All I really have to say on this subject is that things sometimes get taken too far, and I've certainly seen it happen here.
    What? Has the development team already recieved threats?

  23. #2623
    Originally Posted by Specter
    Because voting with out wallets is our only feedback that is sure to be heard. If I choose not to buy a game, then I am expressing my opinion that a game does not deserve my money. If enough people agree, then the game fails. I do not, and would not, hope for people to lose jobs, or studios to close. Just because people invest time into something does not mean it should automatically succeed. I wish the world worked that way, but it doesnt. If I am unhappy with a product, then of course I do not want it to be a huge success. If I did, then how could I possibly hope for a better attempt later?

    EDIT: Just to be clear, I am in no way condoning any kind of harassment. For that reason, I do not like the implication that those who do not support a product, or actively express a dislike for a product, are in some way participating in harassment.
    Voting with your wallet is one thing, but hoping for the game to fail is voting with everybody else's wallets as well. Games that deserve to fail are ones where the design was lazy, games like The War Z where the designers deliberately skimped on effort put into the game and marketed it as something that it's not. Games that make certain design choices that are not popular may still have been the product of a lot of hard work and time, and while they may not deserve to be GOTY, they should still at least turn a profit.

    Incidentally, while this game is obviously making some contentious design choices that are unpopular with the core fanbase, to the modern audience, who this game is targeted primarily at, these kinds of mechanics are a non-issue, so despite the kinds of criticism on the forums this is getting, the reception from the modern audience seems to be good. In IGN's "people's choice best of E3" thing, it got through to the third round and lost to Black Flag 49.5% to 50.5% or something, despite its E3 presence being so much lower. So I think this game will turn a profit.

  24. #2624
    Originally Posted by knox140
    Voting with your wallet is one thing, but hoping for the game to fail is voting with everybody else's wallets as well. Games that deserve to fail are ones where the design was lazy, games like The War Z where the designers deliberately skimped on effort put into the game and marketed it as something that it's not. Games that make certain design choices that are not popular may still have been the product of a lot of hard work and time, and while they may not deserve to be GOTY, they should still at least turn a profit.

    Incidentally, while this game is obviously making some contentious design choices that are unpopular with the core fanbase, to the modern audience, who this game is targeted primarily at, these kinds of mechanics are a non-issue, so despite the kinds of criticism on the forums this is getting, the reception from the modern audience seems to be good. In IGN's "people's choice best of E3" thing, it got through to the third round and lost to Black Flag 49.5% to 50.5% or something, despite its E3 presence being so much lower. So I think this game will turn a profit.
    100% agreed on all points.

    Anyway, this game is not for us, so why are we still here? Just joking, you are all attached of course, but I hope most are ready for disappointment.

    This game will need a Fan's Cut DLC too.

  25. #2625
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    As per my name, I view harrassment as a good thing. It means you're actually making an impression.

    When one becomes famous, harrassment goes with the territory. When I go out shopping, nobody thorws themselves at me and grabs me and tries to kiss me. Nobody want to take their picture with me. I wish I would be harrassed everytime I went out in public. It means I'm not a zero, a slug, a nobody.

    Harrassment is a good thing, in my book.

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