Thread: "Grenades" - New Weapon/Item

"Grenades" - New Weapon/Item

  1. #26
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    Naw. What for? Highly counter-productive. Thief's so simple. Seen or unseen? Heard or unheard? Detected or undetected? Caught or not? Fight, flight, or safely stealthy?

  2. #27
    For the same reason you've got flashbombs. To disorientate guards, as well as for use as a visual screen to hide your movements.

    What's counter productive about them?

    I fail to see why using an explanation like"Thief's so simple" and then listing off two situations where smoke bombs are highly applicable counts as it being an unproductive addition.

    Smoke bombs are a classic stealth/diversionary tool. Why is Thief exempt from this?
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  3. #28
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    Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo
    Smoke bombs are a classic stealth/diversionary tool. Why is Thief exempt from this?
    1. Because incompetent graphical designers still haven't managed to make lighting that lights up or darkens particle effects in proportion to the rest of the game world. And it would look really stupid if in a dark game like Thief you have fullbright smoke effects on a pitch black hallway.

    2. It would be hard to design smoke bombs in the same way as the rest of the bombs, with clockworks and electronics.

  4. #29
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    Thief isn't "exempt", dangit! Garrett's already overpowered. It's simple. Instead of giving the devs things to make and all the logistics (don't you know this part by heart by now?) that are only add-ons to a gameplay system that already has overlapping tools, and if the point of the game is not being seen or heard, and you have flashbombs that stop AIs in their tracks, and mines, gas arrows, and TDS moss arrow choking and gas bombs, why do you you want more stuff? Why? Why is Thief not complete enough for you that you want to increase redundancy and playing sloppy? The answer had better be much more meaningful than "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" items that require more work than your dreamed up moments warrant.

  5. #30
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    a flash bomb simply serves the same purpose as a smoke bomb, except that the user can see where he's going because he didn't stare at the thing when it went off -- unlike a smoke bomb where everyone looking at it should be at the same disadvantage. As a thief, I'd go for just making my enemies' lives harder, than having us all be blind.
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  6. #31
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    Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo
    For the same reason you've got flashbombs. To disorientate guards, as well as for use as a visual screen to hide your movements.

    What's counter productive about them?

    I fail to see why using an explanation like"Thief's so simple" and then listing off two situations where smoke bombs are highly applicable counts as it being an unproductive addition.

    Smoke bombs are a classic stealth/diversionary tool. Why is Thief exempt from this?
    because when you use a flashbomb your enemies cannot see and you can giving you a major advantage

    and when you use a smoke bomb, no one can see including you, why use a weapon that does not confer an advantage

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    1. Because incompetent graphical designers still haven't managed to make lighting that lights up or darkens particle effects in proportion to the rest of the game world. And it would look really stupid if in a dark game like Thief you have fullbright smoke effects on a pitch black hallway.

    2. It would be hard to design smoke bombs in the same way as the rest of the bombs, with clockworks and electronics.
    The particle effects thing is not that much of an issue. Bringing this issue up though then raises the question - Are you objected to ALL particle effects being in this game because of their "stupid" appearance in dark halls?

    And pressurized smoke in a vessel is an easy way to solve the issue. They do have pressure in Thief, don't they?

    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Thief isn't "exempt", dangit! Garrett's already overpowered. It's simple. Instead of giving the devs things to make and all the logistics (don't you know this part by heart by now?) that are only add-ons to a gameplay system that already has overlapping tools, and if the point of the game is not being seen or heard, and you have flashbombs that stop AIs in their tracks, and mines, gas arrows, and TDS moss arrow choking and gas bombs, why do you you want more stuff? Why? Why is Thief not complete enough for you that you want to increase redundancy and playing sloppy? The answer had better be much more meaningful than "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" items that require more work than your dreamed up moments warrant.
    Because you have no makeshift optical screen. None of the objects you listed above covers this area of stealth at all. Mines, gas arrows, gas bombs, choking moss arrows all deal with disabling and removing guards. Smoke bombs deal with covering your movements.

    And good smoke effects are extremely moody and would only add to very unique wispy-ness of the art work that's evident in Thief.

    Garrett is already overpowered jtr, because you're an extremely advanced Thief player who has been playing the game for the past decade. You know the game and its mechanics extremely well. New tools such as this create new scenarios that you're not accustomed to, not prepared for and have to adapt to.

    Recycling the same old game with the EXACT same tools and the EXACT same mechanics means that it's going to have to recycle the same solutions for the same problems, but just in new settings.

    Livening it up a bit with some new toys to tackle new situations is what revitalises a game. The resistance to the idea of a smoke bomb, which does not counter ANY of the central of ideas in Thief, which you're continuously harping on that people don't get, really shows how you are completely against ANY change to the series with this title.

    Even if that change is well within the principles and values of the game's concept, that you're continuously referencing that "95% of people don't get"

    "Nah, why bother? Thief's simple enough as it is"

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    a flash bomb simply serves the same purpose as a smoke bomb, except that the user can see where he's going because he didn't stare at the thing when it went off -- unlike a smoke bomb where everyone looking at it should be at the same disadvantage. As a thief, I'd go for just making my enemies' lives harder, than having us all be blind.
    No, it doesn't. A flashbomb is for a speedy getaway when the guards are in your immediate vicinity. Smoke bombs have far more applications and advantages.

    And everyone looking at it would be a huge ADVANTAGE when you use it properly, as a method of distraction and misdirection by tossing it in the direction/point of infiltration you're not going/using.

    Originally Posted by esme
    because when you use a flashbomb your enemies cannot see and you can giving you a major advantage

    and when you use a smoke bomb, no one can see including you, why use a weapon that does not confer an advantage
    First, it's not a weapon, it's a tool.

    And you're thinking closed mindedly about this. When you drop it at your feet and you're surrounded by guards, yes it would not be advantageous to you.

    But when you're observing an area that is impassable and heavily populated by guards and plan your route through the smoke before throwing it then there's a huge advantage.

    If you have to pass by an area that's heavily observed you can screen your movements by blocking the FOV and moving on the opposite side of the smoke screen.

    If you're fleeing from guards who are tailing you, but not immediately behind you, dropping a smoke screen offers much more cover and advantage than a flashbomb, which they recover from fairly quickly because it's not immediately at their feet.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  8. #33
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    I still do not see the advantage

    ok it's a tool as is a flashbomb why use a tool that does not confer an advantage

    and I counter your "closeminded" comment with "i've just found a new toy and I wanna play with it" comment, please don't get personal and I will oblige you by doing the same

    running blind is not my favourite way to play thief nor is the "guards on my heels" scenario you'd be amazed how often these things don't happen when I play

    creating a new weapon and then creating artificial scenarios to justify it's use is not a good way to develop weaponry

    you want to develop new weapons look at existing scenarios that the current weapons can't handle and develop something for that, otherwise it's just a new toy for it's own sake and the gee whiz factor

    --EDIT--

    and when I say weapons I do mean tools as well

  9. #34
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    Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo
    No, it doesn't. A flashbomb is for a speedy getaway when the guards are in your immediate vicinity. Smoke bombs have far more applications and advantages.

    And everyone looking at it would be a huge ADVANTAGE when you use it properly, as a method of distraction and misdirection by tossing it in the direction/point of infiltration you're not going/using.
    Effect

    Flashbomb - guard is blind until flashiness wears off

    Smoke - guards and Garrett can't see until smoke dissipates

    Advantage: Flashbomb

    Range: Thrown range (I.E.) close vicinity

    Advantage: Neither

    Smoke bomb: Distracts guards and makes them look the other way

    Flashbomb: moderate noise and flash makes guards look towards flashbomb - for a little.

    Advantage: Neither due to ineffective range

    Solution: Noisemaker arrow, allows for effective range and distraction that will create distance between you and the subject, or even a broadhead against the wall.

    Find a unique use that isn't satisfied by current equipment's capabilities. Then we may want to introduce a new tool. The current equipment set satisfies a plethora of situations.
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  10. #35
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    We have enough tools and weapons. (more than enough actually) We don't need(at least I don't need)new tools. Maybe new ways to use them, increase their capability.
    "Not all shadows are cast by light, some are cast by darkness."

  11. #36
    Originally Posted by esme
    I still do not see the advantage
    Don't see the advantage where? Which instance?

    The distraction application of it should be clear enough by its own merits. Throw the smoke bomb where you want them to investigate, they don't look where you're really going.

    Ok, here's two examples of what I'm talking about. In both instances there are no shadows and Garrett cannot traverse the area before the effects of a flashbomb have worn off, if it even managed to affect all the guards in the first place due to their dispersion. Please excuse my sub standard paint skills - I'm no Platinumoxicity

    NOTE: No guards were harmed during the course of these events.

    Outside, traversing open area, for example:





    Inside, having to bypass a heavily guarded (dining?) room that is well lit, but with an exit that is required to be passed through to advance to the next section of the map:



    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  12. #37
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    I enjoyed the comic relief of the new use for moss arrows. While an out-there, and redundant use for them since there are flashbombs for temporary distractions, it's still fun though.

    Thinking about that use for the moss arrow though, it could provide a means of distracting a guard, but would still count as being seen if you run across their field of view. Advantage still to the flashbomb, but it allows you to use a moss arrow in a tight situation if need be.

    It could also make another guard come over to help the other one who's choking, decreasing it's duration but effectively moving one guard over to the other, while not alerting him.
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  13. #38
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    oh, you're talking about a smoke bomb with a MASSIVE area of effect.

    However, those guards in the first picture would still be blinded by a nicely tossed flashbomb, or I could just shoot a noisemaker inside the house and have them all go in to investigate.

    The second scenario would do well for a noisemaker arrow in the corner, followed by a flashbomb once they were clustered enough.
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  14. #39
    Originally Posted by esme
    I still do not see the advantage

    ok it's a tool as is a flashbomb why use a tool that does not confer an advantage

    and I counter your "closeminded" comment with "i've just found a new toy and I wanna play with it" comment, please don't get personal and I will oblige you by doing the same
    I wasn't getting personal. I mentioned one use for it and rather than thinking of your own uses, you thought I was offering it as an alternative flashbomb and immediately dismissed it.

    running blind is not my favourite way to play thief nor is the "guards on my heels" scenario you'd be amazed how often these things don't happen when I play
    That's fine. But that's you playing. An extremely experienced and veteran Thief player that knows the game inside out.

    Just because you don't use the tools (heck, I'd imagine you're like myself and hardly use ANY of the tools) doesn't mean that having them is a bad thing.

    creating a new weapon and then creating artificial scenarios to justify it's use is not a good way to develop weaponry

    you want to develop new weapons look at existing scenarios that the current weapons can't handle and develop something for that, otherwise it's just a new toy for it's own sake and the gee whiz factor

    --EDIT--

    and when I say weapons I do mean tools as well
    That's the whole point of having new tools/weapons. It creates new potential problems and challenges that need solutions using more than just the equipment you had in the first three games.

    Do you think that the developers design the levels and then say "What tools will we give them to get past these?". No, equipment is designed first and then the levels are designed around the capabilities the developer has given the player to pass by various obstacles. These obstacles are then designed around the tools the player has to combat them.

    I can't give you an instance from previous games because they were designed with strictly the toolkit that the game had to beat the challenges. Presenting situations where you required a piece of equipment that wasn't in the game is moot.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    Effect

    Flashbomb - guard is blind until flashiness wears off

    Smoke - guards and Garrett can't see until smoke dissipates

    Advantage: Flashbomb
    Again, this is one situation that you're talking about that the flashbomb has a clear advantage over because it doesn't blind Garrett as much as it does the guards. Dropping a smoke at your feet is not the primary use of a smoke bomb, though it would give you a brief element of surprise.

    Smoke bomb: Distracts guards and makes them look the other way

    Flashbomb: moderate noise and flash makes guards look towards flashbomb - for a little.

    Advantage: Neither due to ineffective range
    That's not very good deducing. Neither have an advantage because of ineffective range? No, long standing smoke will hold far more attention than a single flash bomb going off

    Solution: Noisemaker arrow, allows for effective range and distraction that will create distance between you and the subject, or even a broadhead against the wall.
    A single noise (IMO) doesn't warrant the attention of 3-4 guards investigating it. A smoke screen obscuring the view of an entire area would.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  15. #40
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    again you are creating artificial scenarios to justify the use of a new tool

    you need to find the scenarios first

    for example I can create a new weapon I'll take the ice arrow from T2X I can create any number of scenarios where I can use it to create a platform I can stand on on water and where it's the only solution to the problem, I don't because we don't need the ice arrow unless situations are specifically engineered that need it

    or a different, one the elevator bomb, drop it on the floor and elevator forms under your feet and carries you straight up, so useful for those situations where you've fallen down a hole and the only exit is out of reach above your head, again the solution was created then I had to think of a problem to justify it

    and this is what you are doing with the smoke bomb, you've made the tool and now you are creating situations where it's the only possible solution to justify the tools existence

    to be honest any talk about developing new weapons or tools is a waste until we have some information from the devs to tell us what type of situations we are going to encounter

  16. #41
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    you're going to need to explain, effectively, what you want. When I think of in game smoke bombs, I think of something that takes a few seconds to deploy (seeping) and lasts 20 seconds in about a 15 foot radius circle, not accounting for wind, or I think of an instantaneous POOF that effects a smaller area of like 15 foot diameter, and lasts maybe 10-15 seconds.

    Then you need to find repeatable situations where it serves a purpose that no other tool(s) quite fill well enough. If you can't do that, it's a waste of development time, because I can create nearly all the effects you are by throwing a flashbomb, shooting a noisemaker arrow, or some combination thereof. God forbid I just might pop an invisibility potion.
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  17. #42
    Do you think that the developers design the levels and then say "What tools will we give them to get past these?". No, equipment is designed first and then the levels are designed around the capabilities the developer has given the player to pass by various obstacles. These obstacles are then designed around the tools the player has to combat them.
    True... ISA probably had to put in some climbable walls to make climbing gloves remotely useful

    In all seriousness, I don't have time to read thru all this, but will later. Was just trying to be lighthearted about the above.

    Smoke bombs create attention; guards will look where the smoke is. So in that respect, the benefit it brings is the same as a noisemaker or flashbomb. However, smoke bombs would/could be silent. I think smoke bombs (or steam mines, or steam bombs, or whatever) could be nice, and useful in many situations in general, not just for specific scenarios. One could use them at any time on any level and be beneficial, imo. But I fear it might make the gameplay a little too easy. I also want to be careful to not have 'too many' tools. I like a challenge, and like having a limited variety of weapons to achieve results.

    A single noise (IMO) doesn't warrant the attention of 3-4 guards investigating it.
    Good point. I hope T4 makes it so that if there are 3 guards in an area, that the AI don't all react the same way. Maybe 1 investigates fully, but the other 2 do a partial search and let the 3rd one do the detailed search.

  18. #43
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    at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth and with a total lack of any knowledge from the original team I am prepared to put £5 on the major parts of the toolset for the original Thief being developed to solve problems in the environment and not the problems in the environment being created to allow the use of the tools, with the exceptions of lockpicks, swords and broadheads which are more or less expected to be there

    conversations like .....ok we've got a mansion with windows how do we want to get in ?
    front door - ok but there will be lots of guards and we want stealth - window ? - ok but they are high up - some sort of grapnel ? - sounds awkward - how about a wooden surround on the window and a rope arrow that deploys when it hits wood, we might find other uses for that - can we do that ? - yep - ok rough it out and let me see... and the rest is history

    probably didn't go quite that way but I still say the tools were created to solve the problems and not the other way around

  19. #44
    Originally Posted by esme
    again you are creating artificial scenarios to justify the use of a new tool

    you need to find the scenarios first
    No, you really don't. How would any game development happen this way?

    for example I can create a new weapon I'll take the ice arrow from T2X I can create any number of scenarios where I can use it to create a platform I can stand on on water and where it's the only solution to the problem, I don't because we don't need the ice arrow unless situations are specifically engineered that need it

    or a different, one the elevator bomb, drop it on the floor and elevator forms under your feet and carries you straight up, so useful for those situations where you've fallen down a hole and the only exit is out of reach above your head, again the solution was created then I had to think of a problem to justify it
    That's how brainstorm for gaming mechanics works. You conceive a tool that's designed for a specific purpose, which allows them to accomplish a certain feat and use that feat to develop the levels. Your two examples are examples of situations where such a mechanic would be useful, but then you've to ask yourself, do you really want elevator bombs creating magical elevators out of nowhere in Thief? Or do you want to create instances where the player is falling down holes that are inescapable unless they have this one piece of equipment?

    And "justifying" is the wrong word to be using here, IMO.

    and this is what you are doing with the smoke bomb, you've made the tool and now you are creating situations where it's the only possible solution to justify the tools existence
    No, I'm not saying that this is the only solution. Neither did I fabricate these instances out of a completely fictitious Thief setting. These situations are clearly applicable to the game, though not directly extracted from any level design.

    I'm giving situations where having a smoke bomb would be advantageous. Hypervosa just gave an example of how to pass the first instance, but like the games before it, it's the same solution to the same problem over and over and over. Options and alternatives are not a bad thing. If you don't want to use them, then you don't have to, but saying that you can't see the advantage

    to be honest any talk about developing new weapons or tools is a waste until we have some information from the devs to tell us what type of situations we are going to encounter
    I think that's the point of the thread, but I don't think the dev team will tell you what you kind of situations you will have to pass. When they start revealing stuff, they'll show you the new equipment and then tell you how you can use this in the game. That's how it's normally done at least.

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    you're going to need to explain, effectively, what you want. When I think of in game smoke bombs, I think of something that takes a few seconds to deploy (seeping) and lasts 20 seconds in about a 15 foot radius circle, not accounting for wind, or I think of an instantaneous POOF that effects a smaller area of like 15 foot diameter, and lasts maybe 10-15 seconds.

    Then you need to find repeatable situations where it serves a purpose that no other tool(s) quite fill well enough. If you can't do that, it's a waste of development time, because I can create nearly all the effects you are by throwing a flashbomb, shooting a noisemaker arrow, or some combination thereof. God forbid I just might pop an invisibility potion.
    I'm sorry, but why do you need ANYTHING equipment then? All we need is invisibility potions, surely?

    It's about options Hypervosa. Sure, you can use a noise maker and a flashbomb, and then another flashbomb and you get get by every situation in the game. But having the same meal for dinner, three times a day, seven days away tends to take the flavour away from it.

    This line of reasoning "why would we need something to serve the purpsoe of something we can do with a combination of 2-3 other tools?" is so obviously anti-change that it's bordering on humorous.

    The examples I gave were obvious and widespread. I explained them the way I did to clearly mark the advantage of doing it. These exact situations are clearly not going to pop up time and time again, but the principles of how the smoke screen works and how it can be applied in game is what I was trying to explaining. If you can't think of situations where these principles would be applicable, well then, I guess your imagination isn't that strong.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  20. #45
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    I was quite enamoured of the double ended rope arrow idea I came up with

    I had all sorts of useful things for it to do

    there was a zip line, a trip wire, a tight rope or makeshift platform to get at something high or jump on something below, you could hang under it, tightrope walk it or slide along it, you could fire one end into a wall walk past a door and shoot the other end into a wall and the rope between them would hold the door shut

    I engineered all sorts of situations where it would be a life saver, I even came up with ways of breaking it, guards could cut the deployed rope in which case you got two arrows at either end, if you shot one end into brick it broke so the other end reverted to being an ordinary rope arrow, if the second target was too far from the first then the arrow would reach the distance and then recoil slightly falling in an arc to the floor

    you retrieved the pair by frobbing either end

    it was glorious, it was useful, it would solve lots of problems

    then I realised that the problems didn't actually exist and I was just creating them to justify my wonderful rope arrows existence

    and it all fell apart at that point, it was a nice tool and it solved nice problems, none of which couldn't be solved in a different way

    the smoke bomb is the same, there are existing tools that will already solve the problems

    want to be unseen by the enemy ? ok here's a couple of ways using the existing tools
    1. make them look somewhere else with a distraction tool
    2. lure them out of position so their viewing angle is compromised
    3. lure them somewhere you can deal with them on your terms
    4. use a flashbomb
    5. use an invisibility potion

    I have no doubt that you could add to that list with the existing kit, we don't need another weapon for this problem

  21. #46
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    Originally Posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo
    Please excuse my sub standard paint skills - I'm no Platinumoxicity

    (Pics illustrating impossible scenarios that no sane level designer would enforce the player to play in this way in a Thief game)
    I hope you're not implying that the level designers should deliberately create areas that the player 100% positively needs to get though in order to finish the mission, but it's impossible to do without revealing your existence inside the establishment by utilizing suspiscious tools? In Thief, areas like that are called "Level design errors" because it's impossible to sneak through them without the enemy realizing in some way that there has to be an intruder in the premises. If you toss a rock to make some vague noise but remain unseen, the guards will think it was nothing. But if you toss a smoke bomb, even though you remain unseen the guards know there is someone sneaking around.

    There was a well-lit hallway in "Sabotage at Soulforge" that was being guarded by a cherub robot. Completely impossible to sneak through unseen without using a flashbomb. Only way in too. But the area was optional. You didn't need to go there, so ghosting the final mission even on expert was entirely possible.

    Levels need to be ghostable in a way that doesn't require you giving hints to your enemies about your presence by tossing around obvious thieves tools for all to see. IIRC the Overlook Manor in TDS was the first mission in the series that is impossible to ghost through without relevaling your presence by flashing 1 guard. The 2nd one was the Cradle.

    And by being able to ghost through I don't mean "being able to steal all possible loot and finding all secrets. I mean being able to ghost through and completing all objectives on expert. Even if it's just barely.

  22. #47
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    the best tool you have is the one between your ears

    trouble is it's often the most neglected

  23. #48
    Originally Posted by esme
    at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth and with a total lack of any knowledge from the original team I am prepared to put £5 on the major parts of the toolset for the original Thief being developed to solve problems in the environment and not the problems in the environment being created to allow the use of the tools, with the exceptions of lockpicks, swords and broadheads which are more or less expected to be there

    conversations like .....ok we've got a mansion with windows how do we want to get in ?
    front door - ok but there will be lots of guards and we want stealth - window ? - ok but they are high up - some sort of grapnel ? - sounds awkward - how about a wooden surround on the window and a rope arrow that deploys when it hits wood, we might find other uses for that - can we do that ? - yep - ok rough it out and let me see... and the rest is history

    probably didn't go quite that way but I still say the tools were created to solve the problems and not the other way around
    You're working backwards now and missing the concept phase. Before they've designed any levels they have thought. Do we want our thief to have a grappling hook to enter the side entrances to buildings that are out of reach? If they said yes, then they'd ask themselves. Is carrying a grappling hook and creating a whole different system to aim/judge/throw etc.. worth it? Can we fire one from our bow?

    So they'd conceive the rope arrow in its stead. They now have a tool that lets them gain access to high entrances/balconies and other such circumstances. This then allows them to implement these features into a level to provide additional gameplay situations for the player to overcome with the new tool that was included in their toolset.

    They didn't design these levels before hand with side entrances and torches everywhere and they come up with the tools to get through the level, they sat down and brainstormed what abilities they want the player to have (extinguishing lights, picking locks, making distractions, gaining access to inaccessible areas etc..) and then came up with the tools that fit the gaming premise. Then they design the levels around the abilities they've given the player.

    The line of thinking is similar here, except you're adding another ability to the players repertoire - the ability to create makeshift visual screens to cover their movements. This just permits them to add another dynamic to the game and gives the player a LTL tool that they can experiment with.

    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    I hope you're not implying that the level designers should deliberately create areas that the player 100% positively needs to get though in order to finish the mission, but it's impossible to do without revealing your existence inside the establishment by utilizing suspiscious tools?
    No, I used those scenarios as clear examples of the obvious advantage of a smoke screen, since esme couldn't see the advantage of it.

    Sure, there can be other ways, but this is one of the ways and with a smoke screen, this situations are passable. These might be used to get past various scenarios that are not mission critical, but contain secondary objectives.

    In Thief, areas like that are called "Level design errors" because it's impossible to sneak through them without the enemy realizing in some way that there has to be an intruder in the premises. If you toss a rock to make some vague noise but remain unseen, the guards will think it was nothing. But if you toss a smoke bomb, even though you remain unseen the guards know there is someone sneaking around.
    Same thing applies for a lot of tools in Thief. Use them and the guards know someone is there, but not where that person is.

    There was a well-lit hallway in "Sabotage at Soulforge" that was being guarded by a cherub robot. Completely impossible to sneak through unseen without using a flashbomb. Only way in too. But the area was optional. You didn't need to go there, so ghosting the final mission even on expert was entirely possible.

    Levels need to be ghostable in a way that doesn't require you giving hints to your enemies about your presence by tossing around obvious thieves tools for all to see. IIRC the Overlook Manor in TDS was the first mission in the series that is impossible to ghost through without relevaling your presence by flashing 1 guard. The 2nd one was the Cradle.

    And by being able to ghost through I don't mean "being able to steal all possible loot and finding all secrets. I mean being able to ghost through and completing all objectives on expert. Even if it's just barely.
    That's fine. I'm not in disagreement at all. I don't know where I mentioned in my post that I suggested otherwise. The instance of "only door out" was to illustrate that Garrett needed to get out of that room and in that direction. Sure there could be an alternative route somewhere else, but this is one way past to the next area.
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,701
    I'm not working backwards and I'm not saying they built the levels first and then made the tools to fit

    I'm saying the initial design session starts with the concept of the environment and it's denizens and the kinds of problems that are likely to need solving then they come up with the ways of solving those problems maybe tweaking the environment and denizens ideas in the process

    this will continue, round and round until they come up with a list of core concepts and ideas to define the universe

    then they rough out some artwork to see what things might look like

    then they may refine the universe a bit more

    then some time down the way when everybody's happy with the concepts they might actually start to design the level and build the tools and the engine

    the problem comes first then the solution not the other way around

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    In many games, it's very typical that more ideas are thrown out than kept, as well as some ideas that time and resources or other obstacles didn't allow, and they might show up in sequels or patches or new editions, etc. The Thief games contain the remnants of a lot of things never implemented, decided against, removed after having been made, and so on.

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