Thread: Thought's on the Thief story: Where to from here?

Thought's on the Thief story: Where to from here?

  1. #151
    Originally Posted by Oon Kuka Oon

    1) What you mean, substituting a faction?
    2) And it was Garrett who broke the balance.
    1) In my post I merely wanted to stretch the fact that the concept of the factions has been already used in the storyline of the series and with specific purposes. By recreating similar scenarios, in my opinion, nothing really special can be proposed in order to create a sequel with the same strength and impact that TDP and TMA possessed. Both games were so well thought in terms of plot, so unique, so rich, that still now are valued far more than TDS (which at a very surface closed, for bad or for good, the Trilogy u don't like to hear about ) Overall, it is on a different typology of threat that I would concentrate (but I've got to read more posts on the subject, even older ones that I have not had the time to examine yet)

    2) It is because the three factions got corrupted that the Balance of the City broke, and it might have as well happened even if Garrett had remained a Keeper...it would have happened in different forms, following different timing...but that's speculation, so I won't carry on.
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  2. #152
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    Garrett never broke the Balance. He broke his own, yeah. He angered some people enough for them to lose their own Balance, too, but as far as The City and the Factions are concerned, Garrett Balanced them, through the Keepers guided by the Glyphs manipulating him to keep him on a path.

  3. #153
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    Like I keep saying, it's a presentation and execution issue, and a lot of it can be blamed on the devs not having enough time and losing their chance.

  4. #154
    Despite the richness and appeal of the Thief world, I always felt that the stories of the games were closer to shallow (but working) than deep and fulfilling. It didn't make the game boring or anything, since the major portion of the appeal of Thief resides in other elements. For all three games, the stories are practically the same. The writers can also come up with something similar for Thief 4 that conforms to the formula and it won't be a great disappointment, but I can't help but feel that Thief would benefit from more depth and variety.

    However, I imagine that most people reading through these forums have realized by now that it's really difficult to come up with even the outlines of a decent story. "Where to from here" indeed. It's been argued that TDS is at fault here since it put the writers in a corner with its ending, but I don't think that's exactly it. The main reason behind this is that there are simply no real characters in Thief. The only character with depth is Garrett (and I hope and pray they will not end up making Thief 4 choice-based where the player chooses what Garrett would say in conversations, because a "variable" character is not a character at all), and maybe a couple more people who are now dead. It's a shame all the intelligent and sophisticated characters you only encounter in readables across the various missions. And then there are the different factions, which are pretty similar to characters, and they are deep and well thought out and are a very important building block of the Thief world, but none of which can be featured in Thief 4 as a second main character again. This lack of characters is the reason why we see "the girl" being mentioned over and over, as well as the Eye, a different protagonist... etc.

    That's why I propose that new characters be introduced to the Thief world, and that the depth of these characters and the story in general be increased, warranting slightly different story telling techniques that would accommodate for the increased number of cutscenes and dialog maybe. Compare the characters in Thief with those in, say, the Legacy of Kain series. In LOK, we have a large number of characters, all of which with different personalities and agendas, making it less difficult to tell an epic story. The point here is that you can't have a deep rich epic story with no characters. I like Thief much more than Soul Reaver, but I like Raziel much more than Garrett.

    So where to from here? I suggest something that still conforms to the formula but is deeper. The outline of the story itself does not have to be deep and complicated, but the characters, motives, manipulations, dialog, and interactions should be. Garrett can sneak into anywhere, read, investigate, overhear, steal, relocate, escape, blend... etc. He can see the events of the story from many perspectives while the rest of the characters can't.

    These are my admittedly incoherent thoughts about this.

  5. #155
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    Oh I would love it if the T4 writer(s) made the game deeper. I know you've noticed that many suggestions on the forum are for a game that's actually more shallow! There are many characters and minor factions that are powerful but were only touched on, and I know for a fact that some heavy duty sub-plots were totally skipped by most players, and even the blatant major plot-points were somehow missed. The material is rich, but the gameplay distracts from digesting it, especially in conversations, but there's a lot of material already out there to weave into something more, as well as bringing in the new for possible sequels after T4.

  6. #156
    Originally Posted by hikikomori-san
    The point here is that you can't have a deep rich epic story with no characters. I like Thief much more than Soul Reaver, but I like Raziel much more than Garrett.
    Tastes are tastes by all means, but as far as Raziel is concerned and if what I found indeed refers to the game charatcer you mentioned, I needed to read these few descritpions to get bored already:

    "Physical Appearance: Considered handsome during his vampiric unlife, Raziel was taller and stronger than his brethren...."

    But never mind that.

    What Jtr7 said is right, "gameplay distracts" from getting every aspect of a game story. However, the fact that, sub-plots or other elements are missed by players, is a proof that as far as the game content goes, the material is indeed out there. This is why, after playing Thief and after taking part to the Forum where u can discover what u missed out, players go back to the game with more enthusiasm than before.
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  7. #157
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    I've enjoyed seeking another kind of "loot", the treasure of the stories hidden within the games, and enhanced by the behind-the-scenes anecdotes shared by the devs in forums, chats, interviews, and in sharing deleted or omitted goodies with the community. There are stories hidden in the images, never put to words, and I continue to find more and more every year. I never would've found most of it without searching outside the game. In the game, I'm too immersed in getting from point A to B successfully to really take in all the hints and clues and whispered insights, and it's only been through the concept art or unused game material that I've unlocked mysteries of what seemed to be continuity errors, only to find it was just underdeveloped backstory that wasn't as important as the main game.

  8. #158
    @glyph07: Raziel and Kain (both characters in LOK) are dubbed two of the most lovable characters in video games. Never mind their descriptions, appearance, and the actual story - they are loved because they go through all kinds of stuff, talk to all kinds of people (quite lengthily), and express themselves fully and fluently. They feel deep. See This for example. It's one of the many, many countless encounters between the characters in the series. This is comparable to this in TDS. Actual dialog and other elements aside, the difference in the number of such cutscenes is representative of the point I was trying to make. I certainly do not want to compare the two games together because that would be stupid and pointless. I'm only contrasting the depth of the stories and the number and depth of characters.

    That said, the nature of the gameplay in Thief and the feel of the game and the experience makes the insertion of many cutscenes and dialogs awkward and annoying. Overhearing conversations can only take us so far, and we certainly don't want to end up with a game where the objectives are "go talk to keeper X, infiltrate the bedroom of the high hammerite priest and speak with him, go to the pub in the docks to meet with the mysterious masked Pagan... etc". In the end I still don't know how this should be approached.

  9. #159
    Originally Posted by hikikomori-san
    @glyph07: Raziel and Kain (both characters in LOK) are dubbed two of the most lovable characters in video games. Never mind their descriptions, appearance, and the actual story
    ...hm....what else is left then?!
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  10. #160
    Since the whole concept of thief thrives on mysteries and the unknown, it is also difficult to balance how much should be shown for the player. Most of what we know about the city has been puzzled together.

    The problems with dialogue is that we're dealing with a antisocial protagonist. There is not much info about Garrett except his goals and some on his various contacts, but which often seem to be more like business parters than people with an actual relation to Garrett.

    It is hard to find a approach that feels natural when the protagonist generally shows a unwillingness to have any kind of relations to people.

  11. #161
    Originally Posted by glyph07
    ...hm....what else is lfet then?!
    What I meant to say was that they are not loved because of what they are (vampires, or rather, vampire and wrath), their appearance or the way that their story unfolds, but for their characters, personalities, realism and depth. Ok, I've said "depth" too many times already.

    I will forgive EM if they make a mediocre story but an awesome editor and game

  12. #162
    Originally Posted by hikikomori-san
    What I meant to say was that they are not loved because of what they are (vampires, or rather, vampire and wrath), their appearance or the way that their story unfolds, but for their characters, personalities, realism and depth. Ok, I've said "depth" too many times already.

    Are u really saying that plot and character's personality don't have anything to do with each other?! Doesn't your character reflect also who you are?

    I will forgive EM if they make a mediocre story but an awesome editor and game
    Ah...then the mystery here is resolved: I'd crucify them if they did! (that was a metaphor btw )
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  13. #163
    Originally Posted by glyph07
    Are u really saying that plot and character's personality don't have anything to do with each other?! Doesn't your character reflect also who you are?
    Unrelated? Of course not. I will not attempt to define my understanding of the relationship between a story and the participating characters, but they are related while still being different. One can forget the story but remember the characters, for example.

  14. #164
    Originally Posted by hikikomori-san
    Unrelated? Of course not. I will not attempt to define my understanding of the relationship between a story and the participating characters, but they are related while still being different. One can forget the story but remember the characters, for example.
    I really never found to appreciate a character without linking something of the plot too...even in movies....actually when the story line doesn't portrait the characters as I expect, I lose interest in them and they become unfriendly to me.

    Well, everyone's different.
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  15. #165

    My story Idea

    No one bite my head off here, but I quite liked the ending to TDS, AND it left the story open for a different sort of thing. At the very end, Garrett catches this little girl trying to pick his pocket, and it does pretty much a repeat of the start of TDP, where Garrett gets taken in and trained by the Keepers, SO, the story could be the story of the chick grown up into an awesome thief, with an older Garrett as like a father figure/mentor.

    Also, in TDS, the Hammers and the Pagans are on the verge of war, that could be explored as well.

    For the big baddie, I think that maybe they could do something good with arcane creatures, like maybe revenants or vampires or elves, or have the pagan shamans BRING BACK CONSTANTINE! Who else likes the sound of this? Also, I really like how in a lot of books, they never show who the main bad guy is til the very end, this would make my day!

  16. #166
    Originally Posted by Ichabod
    No one bite my head off here, but (...) SO, the story could be the story of the chick grown up into an awesome thief, with an older Garrett as like a father figure/mentor.

    Also, in TDS, the Hammers and the Pagans are on the verge of war, that could be explored as well.

    For the big baddie, I think that maybe they could do something good with arcane creatures, like maybe revenants or vampires or elves, or have the pagan shamans BRING BACK CONSTANTINE! Who else likes the sound of this? Also, I really like how in a lot of books, they never show who the main bad guy is til the very end, this would make my day!
    No biting head! But if u read the thread that explores the issues related Garrett as main character , you will find a lot of opinions on the matter...hopefully (and now u don't bite my head off) against the idea of relegating Garrett to a mentor role which I don't think suits him in any conceivable way.

    As for bringing back an already used character (which also has been discussed but don't remember where just now) and in particular one who had already a perfect and winning set, I'm 100% against the idea. I base my opinion on the fact that balancing out the fun expectations on a great new Thief by reviving an old enemy would come across just as a total incapacity of actually develop new and freash ideas.
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  17. #167
    what glyph said.

  18. #168

    Thief 4 or 5 or 6.....

    I posted this before on another forum but here seems a better place for it now we know more Thie***e is coming.
    I think there is still some life in Garret and the "current" Thief world.
    A storyline I would love to see in a Thief game would involve a scientist that creates a time machine (the technology in Thief is already pretty fantastic so why not?).
    Garret could steal some magical artifact just before the scientist (or perhaps a bad guy with sinister motives) changes the timeline but the magical artifact could protect Garret from changing with the changing timeline. Then Garret's mission could be to find out what the hell has happened to everything and how to put it right by using the time machine with the scientists help. Or maybe Garret himself brings about the changes in the timeline by travelling back to past events and doing something. One mission could involve Garret having to go back to stop HIMSELF from stealing something. Or maybe he could visit past events in the Thief lore. Time travel in entertainment can be whatever you want it to be really since no one knows what the true rammifications would be and I'm sure all manner of complex Thief shennanigans could be created.
    "It's like a finger pointing away to the moon.... Don't concentrate on the finger or you'll miss all the heavenly glory" Bruce Lee

  19. #169
    Timetravel is related with a lot of paradoxes and generally result in a rather cliché story. Is really stopping one self a good plotline it self? Maybe for prince of persia but that story is more of an excuse to let you manipulate time and throwing big bad time monsters at you, than actually being a really good story.

    The thief universe with its different forces of order and chaos is quite complex and interesting as it is. It feels like adding a hamburger to a pizza.

  20. #170
    Originally Posted by glyph07
    1) In my post I merely wanted to stretch the fact that the concept of the factions has been already used in the storyline of the series and with specific purposes. By recreating similar scenarios, in my opinion, nothing really special can be proposed in order to create a sequel with the same strength and impact that TDP and TMA possessed. Both games were so well thought in terms of plot, so unique, so rich, that still now are valued far more than TDS (which at a very surface closed, for bad or for good, the Trilogy u don't like to hear about ) Overall, it is on a different typology of threat that I would concentrate (but I've got to read more posts on the subject, even older ones that I have not had the time to examine yet)
    What makes you think that another corrupt party couldn't be unique plot?
    Organized crime growing too powerfull would be threat to the City's economy, and it would also mean hard time to independents like Garrett. That could be a good plot for TDS2.
    The necromancers have been studying the Book of Ash. They are also former mages. They could rise hordes of undead, maybe some kind of elite undead, elementals, crossovers of elementals and undead. Garrett would have to first find out how he can destroy the Book of Ash, and then acquire items that he needs to do that. It would be exploring places that are long forgotten, maybe completely unknown, hardly mapped and who knows what creatures are roaming there...
    That could be good plot for game that continues from the end of TMA.
    We had a small foretaste of police corruption when Truart was hired to kill Garrett. Any people with money, right friends, or right post would have uncontrollable influence, which would lead to chaos, because they aren't working together and their goals are controversy.

    2) It is because the three factions got corrupted that the Balance of the City broke, and it might have as well happened even if Garrett had remained a Keeper...it would have happened in different forms, following different timing...but that's speculation, so I won't carry on.
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Garrett never broke the Balance. He broke his own, yeah. He angered some people enough for them to lose their own Balance, too, but as far as The City and the Factions are concerned, Garrett Balanced them, through the Keepers guided by the Glyphs manipulating him to keep him on a path.
    The corruption has always been there, but the rival parties were balanced. If Trickster would just have made up an army and tried to destroy the City, he could've been stopped. But Garrett stole the Eye. The Hammers could do nothing to stop Constantine from bringing the Chaos from Inner Maw. Without the Eye Constantine had no advantage. No one had an advantage.

  21. #171
    Originally Posted by Oon Kuka Oon
    What makes you think that another corrupt party couldn't be unique plot?
    Organized crime growing too powerfull would be threat to the City's economy, and it would also mean hard time to independents like Garrett. That could be a good plot for TDS2.
    The necromancers have been studying the Book of Ash. They are also former mages. They could rise hordes of undead, maybe some kind of elite undead, elementals, crossovers of elementals and undead. Garrett would have to first find out how he can destroy the Book of Ash, and then acquire items that he needs to do that. It would be exploring places that are long forgotten, maybe completely unknown, hardly mapped and who knows what creatures are roaming there...
    That could be good plot for game that continues from the end of TMA.
    Ok, maybe I've not been clear enough...let's try again...TDP = faction TMA = faction TDS = faction T4 = another bloody faction?????!!!! Whatever way u change it, u're still talking about a faction, which is the same old concept! I'm not discussing the fact that organised crime might have a better role to play in the new game, I'm not even considering it actually, I'm expressing the fact that as far as I'm concerned T4 will need to leave up to high standards of story lines (particularly after the half disaster of TDS that somehow has to repair). Garrett and the City need to face something not remotely close to what they have already experienced! He was a Master Thief in TDP, he's a Master Thief now and a Keeper...after all the experience he's gathered during the years, do u really think he's not able to live up to another faction?

    I think that the new enemy has to come from the dust...(it's a metaphor of course as I have not clear identification for this impression), from the uneducated, walked over by all dust...sorry I cannot elaborate more than this now.
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  22. #172
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    And it doesn't need to be a faction, but The City can always be threatened by all the uppity powers surging into each power-vacuum left behind every dethroned ex-power.

  23. #173
    I have an alternate idea... Which will not entail hordes of zombies (Sorry guys...)
    Hammers seize control of the city, Pagans poison Garrett with a latent poison and force him to work subversion against the hammers, which he does, but at the same time is trying to secretly bring down the pagans.
    Who likes this concept?

  24. #174
    It is faction-y, but I like it, and I kinda have difficulty with originality....

  25. #175
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    I'm sure I played a fan mission campaign where Garrett had been poisoned and had to breach a hammer cathedral to find a cure

    I'm pretty sure it involved time travel, was set in the winter so you scrabbled about the cathedral ramparts while sliding on ice

    I didn't like the time limit imposed by Garretts declining health but it was an awesome mission set

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