View Poll Results: Do you want the "City Threat Level" feature?

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  • I want the CTL Feature…instead of using the “fixed difficulty” instant fail for killing.

    22 25.88%
  • I want the CTL Feature…working in conjunction with the “fixed difficulty” instant fail for killing.

    29 34.12%
  • I do not want the CTL Feature…l just want the “fixed difficulty” instant fail for killing.

    24 28.24%
  • I do not want the CTL Feature…AND…do not want the “fixed difficulty” instant fail for killing.

    6 7.06%
  • I don’t care if the CTL Feature is implemented or not.

    4 4.71%

Thread: "City Threat Level" Feature

"City Threat Level" Feature

  1. #51
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    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    I'm pretty sure most of us would reload a save where we killed a kid... but if someone finds a dead kid I totally agree that a manhunt needs to be issued. Guards in groups of three, two archers and a swordsman, the swordsman using a bullseye lantern in his off hand to light up everything they find. Yeah... epic, the entire world hates you now should go down.
    Just assign a high value for killing a kid in the CTL, and there you have it...civilian women could also have a higher value than men...this is easily done in the CTL...ahhh, the possibilities...

    Example: Killing/Blackjacking

    Children = 10/5 tension pts
    Elderly = 8/4 tp
    Women = 6/3 tp
    Men = 4/2 tp
    Militant A.I. = 2/1 tp

    What's good about this, is that makes the player think about the increased consequences of violence towards specific types of people, and eliminates generic thinking...promoting a richer, thoughtful experience, that goes beyond the surface when contemplating tactics...doing so in a simple, elegant manner. This would provide a more mindful and immersive experience, immediately adding dimension and meaning to different types of people. It would naturally leverage the player away from committing a violent act towards the more vulnerable individuals, while preserving the value that they would add to the game.

  2. #52
    How about if a dead body is discovered the guards alert people in the area using bell towers (if they get to them to sound the alarm). Anyone within earshot is on a higher alert, but the whole city isn't affected so you can escape the heat and lay low if needs be.

  3. #53
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    Adding it as part of the game, even if it isn't implemented for what Garrett does allows for easier tension levels throughout the game. It can actually become part of the mission opening, "Ever since that kid got killed last night City Watch tensions have been high. People are so keen to catch the killer that guards have been volunteering to work extra shifts without pay and vigilantes are also roaming the streets. I don't think they care much if it's the child killer as long as it's a killer. Looks like I am going to have to be more careful what I do tonight or I may get branded for it."
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  4. #54
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    I'm really not sure about the CTL feature because Garrett is smart enough not to do 2 jobs in the same part of the City in consecutive nights. So even if the alertness of guards in that part of the City would be heightened it would affect his next job which would likely take place far away. The City is a violent place and they can't put it all on martial law just because someone did something in one place one night.

  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    I'm really not sure about the CTL feature because Garrett is smart enough not to do 2 jobs in the same part of the City in consecutive nights. So even if the alertness of guards in that part of the City would be heightened it would affect his next job which would likely take place far away. The City is a violent place and they can't put it all on martial law just because someone did something in one place one night.
    Maybe the job would be in another part of town but Garret would have to pass near the area he was in the previous night.

    Also, as I said, having it doesn't imply implementing it to that extent based on what Garrett does. It allows for an easier increase in guards for certain missions in the original game and for modders too without changing the difficulty level which would also increase the perception level.
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  6. #56
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    From a different thread...

    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    It's one of the reasons I think the "Don't kill anyone" should be an objective in T4, but not result in a game over for it's violation, but have some other heavy consequence. This way you preserve and emphasize the ideal as being to not kill anyone, but still allow the player to make the choice they think Garrett would make in the situation.
    This is the reason for why the CTL was conceived. Although, it works harmoniously with the fixed difficulty "mission-fails", as well.

    It imposes a dynamic difficulty, that directly responds to player violence...the more violence/killing, the greater the community tension rises, resulting in slight increases of difficulty for the player. It would act as natural deterrent for killing, making the player think about the cost of any potential violence beforehand. It would add to immersion, because it is believable, and controllable by the player...enhancing interactive gameplay tension...

    This would, of course, be scaled with the fixed difficulties, in order to provide a balanced experience for all player skill levels.

    Maybe a second objective "Don't murder anyone" could be the difference for Expert. Killing an unaware AI or one that is unarmed/not hostile would result in the game over.
    The nice thing about the CTL, is that it allows designers to be more flexible when considering how to implement difficulty, instead of just relying on the limitations of the "mission-fail" fixed difficulty. For example, killing an unaware militant AI could be a "mission-fail", while killing an alerted militant AI, whether intentionally or by accident, would allow the game to play-out with future consequences for the player. This would allow the designer(s) to completely prevent "cold-blooded murder", while still punishing the player with increased heat for "unprofessional" behavior.

  7. #57
    Frankly...

    Violence is the mark of an amateur.
    I've been called many things... but I am the world's greatest thief.
    Isn't that enough deterrent?
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  8. #58
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    Not for most players.

    A gameplay mechanic is needed in order to compliment the original intention of Garrett's character. Otherwise we get mass-murders and blackjack sprees without punishment. This results in a disparity between gameplay and story. The CTL is designed to unify these two major aspects, whilst staying true to the core design philosophy.

  9. #59
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    The two, actually work best together. For example, on a mission, if you're allowed to kill militant AI, but not civilian AI, and if you kill a servant it's a mission-fail, if you kill a guard the mission continues but with a price of increased tension. This makes the player think about their violent behavior, even though they have the liberty to kill...and keeps Garrett's character in perspective. Once in a while a player may end up killing, but the CTL would keep the thought of gratuitous violence at bay.

  10. #60
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    Having the objective be "No murdering anyone" for Expert, meaning killing a human who is unaware of your presence, unarmed, or not hostile (including someone who has begun to flee), is one I think people could live with.

    It allows the player to choose to defend themselves if in dire situations (my view of what should be allowed) , but prevents wanton backstabbing and fletched assassinations. So no easy/unnecessary killing, and any killing done is probably at great cost to the player in terms of health, even if it's in self defense.
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  11. #61
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    There are still plenty of ways to kill alert AI (if allowed), without the player getting harmed (arrows, mines, etc.). The CTL would provide the appropriate consequence for violence, and increase the overall mental intensity of the game.

    I agree with the "no murder" premise for the expert and master difficulties...and with that, the elimination of the dagger, as it encourages the thought of murder.

  12. #62
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    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Master difficulty should definitely hold true and each lower difficulty should be encouraging less violence, but with increasing leeway, with missions that aren't any easier or harder to cope with than before. If the whole game works within character, the player won't feel bad for choosing a lower difficulty, since they should always look up to Garrett anyway, skill-wise.
    Exactly...

    The dynamic difficulty would impose a sense of Garrett's natural affinity with non-violence at every level of difficulty. Although, the truest representation of this, would be of course, at Master. The CTL would encourage the player to behave more like a master thief, even at the lower difficulty levels...and would provide a welcomed consistency throughout.

  13. #63
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    Although I voted option 2 in the poll, my more complicated view would be: I would strongly want something like this in the game, and I would want the ability to also have instant-failure for killing (with different levels, eg innocent, unaware guard, anyone) available as difficulty options, but the latter only if those are disconnected from the other difficulty settings, else just CTL and no killing restrictions beyond no innocents.
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  14. #64
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    Originally Posted by Vae
    There are still plenty of ways to kill alert AI (if allowed), without the player getting harmed (arrows, mines, etc.).
    If it's not expensive or arduous or dangerous to fight back, then the AI don't have enough health for these difficulties. Cost of time and money are high cost as well - and assuming the player doesn't get infinicash and all of whatever supplies they want, then I don't mind the use of expensive gear for what it was intended to do.

    And please stop bringing up the sword/dagger issue when it's not being discussed.
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  15. #65
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    Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion
    Although I voted option 2 in the poll, my more complicated view would be: I would strongly want something like this in the game, and I would want the ability to also have instant-failure for killing (with different levels, eg innocent, unaware guard, anyone) available as difficulty options, but the latter only if those are disconnected from the other difficulty settings, else just CTL and no killing restrictions beyond no innocents.
    I also voted for option 2, as I think it's the best choice. The "insta-fails" would work well with the CTL, by allowing for the consequences of liberty, whilst leaving the critical boundaries intact.

  16. #66
    The CTL feature is a good idea, but if you ghost a mission will it not make your next mission too easy? I mean in T2 breaking into the bank vault was one of the harder missions i came across in the game. If i had ghosted the mission prior this would maybe void the challenge of the bank level?

  17. #67
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    But isn't someone who chooses Expert/master a challenge whore who wants the hardest play they can get anyways? Would they not WANT to get the CTL up as much as they can?

    I'm not imagining mass murdering while playing the mission, but once they're "done" and about to leave the level they go back and KO every guard necessary to raise the difficulty to max. The system would be moot at higher difficulties because it would encourage the very thing it's trying to prevent for alot of players.

    I'd be playing a more challenging, intense, suspenseful game than anyone who ghosts because of my sandman style and it only takes 10 KO's for me to max out your CTL... not to mention it'll make sandmaning it even more satisfying considering if they really do double/triple the number of guards my final KO count will be that much higher, and each one will be twice as challenging to accomplish.

    57 KO's in life of the party... that made my day.... I'd have like ~100 AI's in my level by your system XD a triple digit KO would be AMAZING.

    And if you go and tell me everyone wears those metal hats I'm not going to be interested in buying the game anymore because it destroys my style of playing the game, much like if there were sections of a hall set up with electric lights for 50 feet on nearly every level and a guard at the end where you'd be seen no matter what (and you have to go down them) would destroy ghosting. Either one is not cool because it singles out a single play style that has been viable since the first game.

    Another issue is, do we have enough power to actually multiply AI's? or would that mean artificially lowering the number per level to anticipate maxing them after the CTL caps?

    I'm feeling the CTL has too much effect - robberies, muggings and murders occur regularly in the city - guards and watch die every day. Mass killing sprees are the only thing that really might be a rarity and cause such a massive response from the city.

    The only person your violence really effects is your fence since goods they sell can't be able to be identified with manors where tons of people died last night (assuming you're robbing from people in the city this matters), or where someone confirmed they saw Garrett robbing the place (the watch would be sure to take note). By relation that makes their job harder and should get you less loot since they now have to further launder or devalue what they're selling to get it off their hands.
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  18. #68
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    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    But isn't someone who chooses Expert/master a challenge whore who wants the hardest play they can get anyways? Would they not WANT to get the CTL up as much as they can?
    If the Master difficulty is properly balanced, it should provide sufficient challenge to the most advanced player, while the CTL would impose an unwanted and avoidable difficulty on top of that.

    I'd be playing a more challenging, intense, suspenseful game than anyone who ghosts because of my sandman style and it only takes 10 KO's for me to max out your CTL... not to mention it'll make sandmaning it even more satisfying considering if they really do double/triple the number of guards my final KO count will be that much higher, and each one will be twice as challenging to accomplish.

    57 KO's in life of the party... that made my day.... I'd have like ~100 AI's in my level by your system XD a triple digit KO would be AMAZING.
    You're forgetting that any gradual increase in AI numbers, would also come with an increase of sensory acuity, more secured/hidden loot, and more secured/trapped portals and containers, also there would be more heat placed on any fences as the tension rises. The effect of the CTL should also be scaled with difficulty, with the lower difficulties being given more leeway for violent action, with less security reaction, while expert and master being less forgiving for un-Garrett-like excessive violent play.

    Another issue is, do we have enough power to actually multiply AI's? or would that mean artificially lowering the number per level to anticipate maxing them after the CTL caps?
    The AI number increase would be gradual, and combined with the other security measures, would provide a sufficient deterrent for excessive violence, without having to rely on AI numbers alone.

    I'm feeling the CTL has too much effect - robberies, muggings and murders occur regularly in the city - guards and watch die every day. Mass killing sprees are the only thing that really might be a rarity and cause such a massive response from the city.
    The response need not be massive, as the reaction would range from subtle to dramatic depending on how much violence is perpetrated, and at what difficulty is being played. Only killing sprees should end up creating a pronounced security response, with anything else being less effectual, yet felt, serving as a deterrent and a warning for unprofessional behavior.

    The only person your violence really effects is your fence since goods they sell can't be able to be identified with manors where tons of people died last night (assuming you're robbing from people in the city this matters), or where someone confirmed they saw Garrett robbing the place (the watch would be sure to take note). By relation that makes their job harder and should get you less loot since they now have to further launder or devalue what they're selling to get it off their hands.
    At various tension levels or even sub-thresholds, the CTL could dynamically alter supply prices, according to the increase or decrease in player violence. Fence character scripts could also be triggered to reflect the current heat in the City.

  19. #69
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    Those wanting the hardest possible challenge could presumably be accomodated somewhat by being able to replay a mission with whatever CTL value they want. And since having the capability of playing a specific mission with a specific CTL will be indispensible for balancing/debugging purposes, this is even immune to complaints that it means more work for the designers!
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  20. #70
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    Originally Posted by Vae
    You're forgetting that any gradual increase in AI numbers, would also come with an increase of sensory acuity, more secured/hidden loot, and more secured/trapped portals and containers, also there would be more heat placed on any fences as the tension rises. The effect of the CTL should also be scaled with difficulty, with the lower difficulties being given more leeway for violent action, with less security reaction, while expert and master being less forgiving for un-Garrett-like excessive violent play.
    Originally Posted by Vae
    The AI number increase would be gradual, and combined with the other security measures, would provide a sufficient deterrent for excessive violence, without having to rely on AI numbers alone.
    Militant A.I. have now doubled in number, and are staying together more often in pairs or groups. Many of them now also carry torches. Their perceptions have been heightened, and are now are on an alert status by default. Melee units are now quicker with their weapons and on foot. There are more ranged units and may even have gas or fire arrows at their disposal.
    That isn't a gradual increase - 10 KO's and guards approximately double at least in the next level assuming pairing is average and for every longer there's one group of 3. What's a big concern for me is will doubling the guards (not to mention adding that many more mobile light sources if they carry torches) cause the game to take a major hit performance wise, and will anticipating a maxed CTL cause normal guard numbers to be, on average, less for each level?

    I still can't help but feel the system is singling out my play style, one that's been viable for all 3 games. Even if I don't get seen the whole mission when I KO everyone. It doesn't make sense that my crime sets the city off much more than any other when no one's dead or seen Garrett the master thief at the end of it... unless we're the last thief in the city or something. Combined with better AI which makes blackjacking harder, it's just slightly not fair.

    Maybe being seen could be a modifier for crimes without murder. If you manage to not be seen during a mission your CTL is negated. I may have to be more careful if I want to keep doing my sandman thing, but I'd rather ghost than have the game decide to gang up on me now for doing something I've done since TDP that was not meant to be discouraged.
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  21. #71
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    You need to learn to make sacrifices for your playstyle. I ghost, so I can't expect to be able to acquire 100% of all the loot because some areas are just impossible to get to without harming anyone. If you like playing Mr. Sandman style, you can leave some guards be, without knocking them out. For example when I used to play that way I never knocked out the Bafford's main gate guards. Because they were not in my way. You shouldn't go out of your way to knock everyone out, just like I don't go out of my way to steal every piece of loot that there is.

  22. #72
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    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    You need to learn to make sacrifices for your playstyle. I ghost, so I can't expect to be able to acquire 100% of all the loot because some areas are just impossible to get to without harming anyone. If you like playing Mr. Sandman style, you can leave some guards be, without knocking them out. For example when I used to play that way I never knocked out the Bafford's main gate guards. Because they were not in my way. You shouldn't go out of your way to knock everyone out, just like I don't go out of my way to steal every piece of loot that there is.
    why do I have to "learn to sacrifice" my playstyle, when it was accepted and allowed since the very beginning? Why must I be forced to adopt your playstyle?

    I feel like making an analogy.

    Let's assume that we all drive to work. We all obey the speed limit to variable tolerances, some of us speeding by 5mph, and some doing the speed limit - the police never pull anyone over who's not putting anyone in danger - so if you speed by 5 MPH or less they won't pull you over, it's the people doing 20 that they chase down. Suddenly, without warning, the police start pulling everyone over who's speeding by any amount because the minority who are doing the speed limit are complaining about anyone being allowed to speed at all. Would that be cool to do to the people who've been driving that way for their whole life? No - or at least I don't think so.
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  23. #73
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    What I said was in the context of this thread, I'm not really advocating anything. I don't support the CTL at all because I don't support a City-hub open world structure. Furthermore on a second thought I don't support any kind of indirect system that punishes a player for a bad playstyle. The difficulty levels should be enough for that. Making the game harder for noobs who don't know to use discretion and making it easier for experts who want more challenge is not what I call good game design. It should be clear that normal mode is for those who want to keep all options, lethal and non-lethal open, and expert is for the ones who are accustomed to the challenges it offers as standard procedure. The same way that common sense says that murdering makes you a bad person, Garrett says that murder makes you and amateur. It shouldn't require a concrete punishment system to prove the point, just like common sense shouldn't require a divine lawmaker to stop people from being bad people.

  24. #74
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    Murders only earn you the ire of entire families and neighborhoods - not a problem. Not to mention the watch wouldn't pay any more attention to a serial killing than usual either.

    I don't mind penalizing people who murder with any sort of frequency, or murder those who are no threat. It's something that makes sense. I just don't see why people getting KOed would bring more attention than the job itself does. All that really matters is if someone actually sees Garrett - otherwise a job so well done would very likely indicate an inside job.

    On a side note- Imagine how many people would be on your ass for killing Benny?

    "Benny... that poor bastard he ... he was so drunk he just stood there... he wasn't botherin nobody... just singing that little tune ... and this taffer... this taffer just ... I'll kill him! I'll find the taffer what killed benny and I'll bleed 'im till the bay turns RED..."
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  25. #75
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    A burglary where everyone in the building gets violently clubbed over the head is going to arouse more alarm than one where this doesn't happen. This seems reasonable. A crime involving violence is taken more seriously than the same crime minus the violence.
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