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Thread: After years, played Deadly Shadows again and came to the conclusion: this game is ART

After years, played Deadly Shadows again and came to the conclusion: this game is ART

  1. #26
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    This inability to see what's said, how often, and by how many, is a bad sign for your guys' enjoyment of the older titles. To say TDS got you into Thief is a misstatement if it only got you into TDS--the last third of a full story. And that's not commentary about what defines Thief fandom, but of accuracy in what is being said there about TDS getting one into Thief.
    By saying TDS got me into the Thief series I mean that because I liked that game and because I only got 1/3 of Garretts story (so far), I am playing through the other two games. Perhaps I will like them better than TDS but that would not make me dislike TDS. I understand partly the Universe of Thief and because of the part I have seen I want to see more. I rather thought this the reason Any of us are here, for a little game called Thief 4.
    "This city could do with more red." "That's our lives your talking about!" "I'll probably be horrified once I'm sober."

  2. #27
    Originally Posted by Limesneeker
    this time I approached the game with a more distant, general and unconditioned way of looking instead with my former, narrow-minded view which focused primarily on the gameplay mechanics.

    This time I didnt want to challange my thief-playing abilities, but just breath the atmosphere.





    And my conclusion is: from this point of view...this game is a piece of ART - more than Thief 1/2...because of consequent visual design.



    In my opinion, this game perfectionized the Thief-Atmosphere, because, while Thief 1/2 already were artistic in regard of sound-design, world-design and story, there was a lack of consequent visual-design.

    In DS, the story ITSELF is echoed in the art and atmosphere and vice versa. I never saw THAT IN ANY OTHER GAME OUT THERE.


    The visuals are reflecting a feeling of degeneration, momentariness, transience and perishability. I think these were major themes of Thief since the beginning but only DS visuals mirror this perfectly and I think this strengenths the rest in return, like some sort of feedback.
    Through it, the already existing elements gained perfection, the sum became greater than its parts and the whole package became a piece of Art through it.


    Even today, the feeling this principle creates is untouched by technical out-of-datenes, and thats something I cannot say about Thief1/2.


    Things I realized this time:


    1.
    Somehow, they managed that the mood of the whole game is reflected in every tiny, single, apperently unimported object, like cups or chairs. Maybe accomplished through consequent usage of the vinelike forms and patterns. I cannot remeber such a distinct, consequent art-design in Thief 1/2.

    Thief is one of the few fantasy games, which really succeeds in creating a USED UNIVERSE.
    Yes, there are dirt-stains and scratches in Oblivion, but there IT FEELS ARTIFICIAL, THERE IT´S JUST NOT THE SAME. Thats a feeling I cannot explain further, maybe others noticed the same, but thats something special, which I never expirienced in any other game. (and the fact that Oblivion is newer further strengthens my thesis that this has nothing to do which technology, therefore, this accomplishment would have been, in principle, manageable at the time of Thief1/2 as well.)


    Thief 1/2 used the same approach, but from a visual standpoint the texture and object design were far more generic.


    2.
    The color-usage is perfect: to see milky-yellow windows inside the silhouette of a dark building surrounded by a blueish/grey nightsky - this alone tells a story.
    This has nothing to do with technology, so Thief1/2 could have created the same in principle.


    3.
    The feeling that every single unimportant room in the game can tell a story on its own was also created by Thief1/2, but I think, again DS perfectionized this.


    4.
    What really fascinates me, is, that DS manages to create this dreamlike (sometimes nightmarish), surreal atmosphere in every corner of the game - even when there is no supernatural object on the screen.

    I think this is caused by the great mix of the alreasy mentioned consequent art-design and use of colors, together with the ambient-music and of course by the story, which itself is intensified through the other elements..and this is Art, because the effect is not decreased by the old engine. But I did not experience this in T1/2 nearly as intenely as in DS.

    5.
    Though hated by most Thief fans: I think from a visual standpoint even the blue fog, blue lights and HUD-Design-elements mirror the world´s themes. In my personal experience, even they added something to the atmosphere. So: by stopping to focus only on the gameplay mechanics, I dont wanna miss them now!
    OH, WOW!! A post that resumes the way which I see that game!!

    I perfectly agree eheh. Good, Limesneeker, you perfectly got the SOUL of this game. And don't forget to give the proper credits to the very hypnotic music of Eric Brosius It really get you into the game.
    Free Fall: S = ½a * t²

  3. #28
    Originally Posted by Namdrol
    razorstealth, here's a link where you can get the complete collection of all 3 games (with Thief Gold in place of TDP )
    Bargain
    Gahhh - this makes me wish I didn't already have them. I paid about 3x as much to get all of them awhile back.

  4. #29
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    I agree with OP.

    TDS was indeed a piece of art regarding it's looks.
    Though it lacked good gameplay.

    It's comparable to Mirror's Edge.
    The game looks like a painting in motion, truly a treat to watch but hellish to be playing duo the lack of good other game mechanics.

    Yes, TDS was a beauty to play.
    But, I prefer gameplay over graphics, and I believe many of us can agree with that.
    Nice thread Limesneeker
    Hello EM!
    *akward silence*

  5. #30
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    Originally Posted by Pieter888
    I agree with OP.

    TDS was indeed a piece of art regarding it's looks.
    Though it lacked good gameplay.

    It's comparable to Mirror's Edge.
    The game looks like a painting in motion, truly a treat to watch but hellish to be playing duo the lack of good other game mechanics.
    What's wrong with ME? I thought the mechanics were just fine. It's a racing game on foot in 3 dimensions, and I can't see how the mechanics for a game like that can be improved from that.

  6. #31
    TDS and the thief cutscenes are remarkably similar compared to t1 and t2 and the game should always look like its cutscenes. TDS is my main point of reference for making my thief movie because of its visuals and feel.

  7. #32
    Originally Posted by Limesneeker
    this time I approached the game with a more distant, general and unconditioned way of looking instead with my former, narrow-minded view which focused primarily on the gameplay mechanics.

    This time I didnt want to challange my thief-playing abilities, but just breath the atmosphere.





    And my conclusion is: from this point of view...this game is a piece of ART - more than Thief 1/2...because of consequent visual design.



    In my opinion, this game perfectionized the Thief-Atmosphere, because, while Thief 1/2 already were artistic in regard of sound-design, world-design and story, there was a lack of consequent visual-design.

    In DS, the story ITSELF is echoed in the art and atmosphere and vice versa. I never saw THAT IN ANY OTHER GAME OUT THERE.


    The visuals are reflecting a feeling of degeneration, momentariness, transience and perishability. I think these were major themes of Thief since the beginning but only DS visuals mirror this perfectly and I think this strengenths the rest in return, like some sort of feedback.
    Through it, the already existing elements gained perfection, the sum became greater than its parts and the whole package became a piece of Art through it.


    Even today, the feeling this principle creates is untouched by technical out-of-datenes, and thats something I cannot say about Thief1/2.


    Things I realized this time:


    1.
    Somehow, they managed that the mood of the whole game is reflected in every tiny, single, apperently unimported object, like cups or chairs. Maybe accomplished through consequent usage of the vinelike forms and patterns. I cannot remeber such a distinct, consequent art-design in Thief 1/2.

    Thief is one of the few fantasy games, which really succeeds in creating a USED UNIVERSE.
    Yes, there are dirt-stains and scratches in Oblivion, but there IT FEELS ARTIFICIAL, THERE IT´S JUST NOT THE SAME. Thats a feeling I cannot explain further, maybe others noticed the same, but thats something special, which I never expirienced in any other game. (and the fact that Oblivion is newer further strengthens my thesis that this has nothing to do which technology, therefore, this accomplishment would have been, in principle, manageable at the time of Thief1/2 as well.)


    Thief 1/2 used the same approach, but from a visual standpoint the texture and object design were far more generic.


    2.
    The color-usage is perfect: to see milky-yellow windows inside the silhouette of a dark building surrounded by a blueish/grey nightsky - this alone tells a story.
    This has nothing to do with technology, so Thief1/2 could have created the same in principle.


    3.
    The feeling that every single unimportant room in the game can tell a story on its own was also created by Thief1/2, but I think, again DS perfectionized this.


    4.
    What really fascinates me, is, that DS manages to create this dreamlike (sometimes nightmarish), surreal atmosphere in every corner of the game - even when there is no supernatural object on the screen.

    I think this is caused by the great mix of the alreasy mentioned consequent art-design and use of colors, together with the ambient-music and of course by the story, which itself is intensified through the other elements..and this is Art, because the effect is not decreased by the old engine. But I did not experience this in T1/2 nearly as intenely as in DS.

    5.
    Though hated by most Thief fans: I think from a visual standpoint even the blue fog, blue lights and HUD-Design-elements mirror the world´s themes. In my personal experience, even they added something to the atmosphere. So: by stopping to focus only on the gameplay mechanics, I dont wanna miss them now!




    There is only one other game out there, which Im aware of doing the same: BIOSHOCK.
    It´s success allows me to hope that game developers come back to ths principle.


    Maybe the following thesis is true: great art is (in some cases) dependant on sophisticated technology, but sophisticated technology alone never creates art.
    (for me, even at the time of it´s release Oblivion is a negative example for this statement.)
    I totally agree with this. The first game of the series I played was TDP, and at first I didn't even finish it, then I played TMA, which was pretty interesting, I played through the game, and thought nothing special of it. Sure, it was a great game, but back then I just didn't think it was all that good.

    Then, I played TDS. Since the first level that game has amazed me, the atmosphere was superb, and the city felt very dark and dangerous, unlike the other two games where it just felt so ordinary (an exception being the sealed off part of town from TDP which was very well made). But that was still nothing towards the cradle, or the docks or the abysmal gale. TDP turned me into a thief fan, but TDS made me an apsolute fanatic. I replayed TDS multiple times, and then, with the new respect I gained for the thief universe in TDS, i played TDP and TMA again and found them great.

    My conclusion is that TDS definetly has the superior art and map design (sure, they were a lot smaller than those in the first two games, but it's about quality, not quantity), but then again, that's all just a matter of opinion. Anyway, I definetly agree with the author of the post that I have quoted. TDS is art.

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by TheWoodsieLord
    My conclusion is that TDS definetly has the superior art and map design (sure, they were a lot smaller than those in the first two games, but it's about quality, not quantity), but then again, that's all just a matter of opinion. Anyway, I definetly agree with the author of the post that I have quoted. TDS is art.
    How about a high quantity of quality, like TMA?

  9. #34
    Of course TDS is art.

    So's this:


  10. #35
    Just played the Assasins level of TDP. From it I shall make a few comparisons between TDP and TDS. First the level was HUGE! Not only was Ramirez's castle four stories tall but the city surrounding it was a maze of streets and tunnels and the river all the way through. I went through and explored all of it, and other than a door under-water that wont unlock and the items at the start point I found NOTHING in the city. So yes TDP and TMA had larger levels but there wasn't anything in them. I was hoping for at least some glimpse of the apparently haunted Old Quarter or a stash of gas arrows, an enlightening paper or something but my maze journey was for nothing. TDS although smaller had tons of loot and tons of information for backstory on missions and the City in general. I loved that and was disappointed not to see that in TDP. I did however love the castle and its grounds and how there were so many ways in and out. I loved the hidden area and how Ramirez looked rich. I never saw a hot tub so full of cash and i am pretty sure TDS didnt have any hot tub action.. So as Platinumoxicity said they would do well to combine TDP's large and spacious levels with TDS large amounts of wealth, information and detail.
    "This city could do with more red." "That's our lives your talking about!" "I'll probably be horrified once I'm sober."

  11. #36
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    Memory limitations and caps on numbers of things in the engine for various reasons at that time were why the earlier levels were empty, and why the story-centric elements were given full attention.

    The problem with TDS's large amounts of wealth were that it led to making Garrett extremely over-powered and nigh invulnerable.

  12. #37

    Yep...

    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Memory limitations and caps on numbers of things in the engine for various reasons at that time were why the earlier levels were empty, and why the story-centric elements were given full attention.The problem with TDS's large amounts of wealth were that it led to making Garrett extremely over-powered and nigh invulnerable.
    ...and once again I cannot avoid but agree with u. In fact, this weakness I believe might lead to a character development in T4 which will take Garrett far, far away from his natural being.

    I do hope this will not occur, and that's y (but I'm not saying it's the only and right way to avoid what I believe would be a huge mistake) I'd rather have a gloomier setting and more hard adventures for Garrett in T4 then getting a game with easy, superficial and not at all witty, cheesy ghostly interpretation of who Garrett truly was.

    Let's hope this will never happen!
    "The Essence of Balance is Detachment"
    Glyph07

  13. #38
    Originally Posted by TheWoodsieLord
    TDP turned me into a thief fan, but TDS made me an apsolute fanatic.
    Exactly in THIS manner I got a Thief fanatic too. Like you, I knew the other 2 games before I played TDS, but back then Thief was "only" a great game. But only through TDS I realized that this setting has a uniqueness which makes Thief in my opinion more compareable with different media´s works of art than with other games!

    Today, I´m not very much very much concerned with games anymore but Thief is something which I apperently will never forget - since I played TDS.

    Cool. Guess we´re on the same wavelength. (and apperantly we´re the only 2 in this forum with this kind of taste...)


    Originally Posted by TheWoodsieLord
    I replayed TDS multiple times, and then, with the new respect I gained for the thief universe in TDS, i played TDP and TMA again and found them great.
    .
    Lol. It´s like you´re telling my story. The same did I and the same I experienced when playing TDP/TMA later on...
    ORDER AND CHAOS TRANSCENDER
    New science: www.amitgoswami.org

  14. #39
    I agree with the OP, except for the stuff about the UI. The UI in DS is FUGLY.
    "The world is in a constant conspiracy against the brave. It's the age-old struggle: the roar of the crowd on one side, and the voice of your conscience on the other."

  15. #40
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Memory limitations and caps on numbers of things in the engine for various reasons at that time were why the earlier levels were empty, and why the story-centric elements were given full attention.

    The problem with TDS's large amounts of wealth were that it led to making Garrett extremely over-powered and nigh invulnerable.
    So take the excessive wealth places and replace the extra wealth with more story. Leave more letters and random but revealing dialogues around. Just don't create a maze for us little ratsies and forgets to put some cheesers insides it!!
    "This city could do with more red." "That's our lives your talking about!" "I'll probably be horrified once I'm sober."

  16. #41
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    I'd rather it was more realistic in the senses of having people sleeping, working, scraping by, sick, taking care of infants, and other common scenarios, so the morality issue keeps coming up and not every person has something valuable to Garrett, but valuable to themselves. There shouldn't be loot and readables everywhere, and some places should continue to be interstitial on the way to the real goodies. Not every space has ever had loot or readables, but make the player work and practice exploration, leading to things that are interesting, which promise something to come, and then Garrett gets his reward for all his troubles. The way it's always been, just improved, and expanded, with new tech for creating more scenarios that were only hinted at before.

  17. #42
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    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I'd rather it was more realistic in the senses of having people sleeping, working, scraping by, sick, taking care of infants, and other common scenarios, so the morality issue keeps coming up and not every person has something valuable to Garrett, but valuable to themselves. There shouldn't be loot and readables everywhere, and some places should continue to be interstitial on the way to the real goodies. Not every space has ever had loot or readables, but make the player work and practice exploration, leading to things that are interesting, which promise something to come, and then Garrett gets his reward for all his troubles. The way it's always been, just improved, and expanded, with new tech for creating more scenarios that were only hinted at before.
    Yeah, I agree. This would be a natural extension of the game, and I encourage it.

    Garrett needs to always be earning through challenge that requires thoughtfulness and stealth...this balance point maintains the meaning and importance of everything that is gathered and experienced.

    Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    Of course TDS is art.

    So's this:

    Is that supposed to be Jesus and Elvis together in Heaven at last?

    Notice how Elvis' aura is bigger and brighter than Jesus', even though he has a sickly burnt out look on his face...kind of like how TDS is shiny on the outside and sour on the inside...whilst Jesus looks on strong and true inside and out like T1/T2...what contrast, what sublimity... truly a work of art, just like TDS...

  18. #43
    This is Santa Elvis
    Free Fall: S = ½a * t²

  19. #44
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    Back for another concert with Paul Simon? This Art isn't game:



    Speaking of art:
    http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88491

  20. #45
    Originally Posted by Vae
    ...kind of like how TDS is shiny on the outside and sour on the inside...whilst Jesus looks on strong and true inside and out like T1/T2...what contrast, what sublimity... truly a work of art, just like TDS...
    Some people like sour.

    My sister, for example, with those blasted Sea Salt & Vinegar potato chips... Gross.
    signature image

  21. #46
    I think, a big reason why thief 3 seems so captivating and artistic is its continuing gameplay. You are not jumping from mission to mission with no clue of how you got your stuff. So you feel like you are having an experience as opposed to 'missions'.

    But when you get into the levels of all 3 games, the experience is exquisite for all 3 (The only exception being bits of TMA, It took me so long to like the machines...being a fan pre industrial type of stuff)!

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by NewHorizon
    The problem in TDS was also that your money carried over from level to level. In the first two games, Garrett obviously had a life going on between missions. He paid rent, informants, bought food, supplies, maps...etc. He barely made enough to get by...yet in TDS, you could come away practically rich. It was just one of many poor design choices they made in the game.
    I feel the opposite. Having the money carry over gave me more of a sense of continuity. With Dark Project and Metal Age each mission felt compartmentalized because you only had the cash from the immediately previous mission. Allowing the cash to carry over from mission to mission is one of the positive developments in Deadly Shadows. Really, the only things I disliked about Deadly Shadows were Garret forgetting how to swim, the lack of vine/rope arrows, the blue tint for highlighting objects, the respawning enemies and the constant reminders of how much loot you'd acquired.

  23. #48

    we should be more objective

    I absolutely agree with you..I even painted a scene from TDS. The taverns, the dynamic shadows, the lights, the atmosphere is just brilliant and more advanced from its predecessors.. I honestly didn't see so much flaws in TDS. There were some things that bothered me of course for example the movement of the character was a bit edgy but all in all a great game.. I passed it 10 times! I explored every corner of the game just because I enjoyed the atmosphere so much...To everyone that disagrees I recommend to you start the game again with an opened mind and see it as it actually is...every game has flaws but if I had such a strong thief like feeling through the game and so much enjoyment while exploring it I am sure you can too?

  24. #49
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    Originally Posted by cofiking
    I absolutely agree with you..I even painted a scene from TDS. The taverns, the dynamic shadows, the lights, the atmosphere is just brilliant and more advanced from its predecessors.. I honestly didn't see so much flaws in TDS. There were some things that bothered me of course for example the movement of the character was a bit edgy but all in all a great game.. I passed it 10 times! I explored every corner of the game just because I enjoyed the atmosphere so much...To everyone that disagrees I recommend to you start the game again with an opened mind and see it as it actually is...every game has flaws but if I had such a strong thief like feeling through the game and so much enjoyment while exploring it I am sure you can too?
    You passed TDS 10 times and explored every corner? I've passed T2 at least 30 times and T1 50 times and I'm still finding new stuff.

  25. #50
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    forget the cradle, this is scaring the bejeezus out of me

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