Page 2 of 3 First First 123 Last

Thread: A horrible, creeping thought

A horrible, creeping thought

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Yep. Thief shouldn't be about the kids. The only thing that should be for the kids is the continued lack of cussing, gore, and sex. If it's done without condescension and with complete respect for the marketing demographic, it will reach people of all ages, men and women, boys and girls, alike.

  2. #27
    @Gabriel

    Thief to me is like an old friend for life (from the opposite sex.... better known as women ) . The friendship is proven, you have mutual respect for eachother and even during bad times (read: bad FM's or default missions), you now deeply that nothing can break you apart because there's so much that happened to you both (f.ex. Life of the Party) which made what you're today. The relation stands like a rock. It's a lifetime achievement. And you don't have to see eachother every week, but you know you're always welcome to see her (for new missions or replaying)... and that is nothing short of brilliant. That's what Thief DP/MA are to me... it works and I love it.

    TDS is like a lesbian whore.... you know it's got something (speaking for myself now), but at the end... you can never win, because you're not part of the "game" ... ... ... ... ... ......... tralalalalalalaaaa

  3. #28
    I'm not entirely sure if this came out right...

  4. #29
    Originally Posted by Quad
    I'm not entirely sure if this came out right...
    You know, neither am I.

  5. #30
    Originally Posted by Quad
    @Gabriel

    Thief to me is like an old friend for life (from the opposite sex.... better known as women ) . The friendship is proven, you have mutual respect for eachother and even during bad times (read: bad FM's or default missions), you now deeply that nothing can break you apart because there's so much that happened to you both (f.ex. Life of the Party) which made what you're today. The relation stands like a rock. It's a lifetime achievement. And you don't have to see eachother every week, but you know you're always welcome to see her (for new missions or replaying)... and that is nothing short of brilliant. That's what Thief DP/MA are to me... it works and I love it.

    TDS is like a lesbian whore.... you know it's got something (speaking for myself now), but at the end... you can never win, because you're not part of the "game" ... ... ... ... ... ......... tralalalalalalaaaa
    My sarcasm detector seems to be broken lately, so I can't tell if you're trying to mock my analogies or what. Maybe I got a little too touchy there, but I can't help it. Thief is my favorite game series.

    Either way, try not to post when under the influence

  6. #31
    I was a bit low on sugar. But the first part about the old friend is actually how I experience it. Positive.

    The lesbian whore part... well, that's sarcasm, but I think I forgot the english language for a moment. Not that I ever mastered it. Or something.

    I'm sorry if I made you feel bad, wasn't my intension at all, because what you wrote was right. No achievement-points in T4 !

  7. #32
    Achievement unlocked: Garret has collected 50 hearts! You may now customize your rainbow cloak of invisibility!

  8. #33
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,518
    Originally Posted by Myth
    Achievement unlocked: Garret has collected 50 hearts! You may now customize your rainbow cloak of invisibility!
    Oh god no, not an invisibility cloak.... if that's ever in a thief game, except for maybe a small section, and the dudes better be able to hear me, the devs will feel my hate wherever they live, it will be that intense.

    Anyways, I've said it already but it bears saying again, achievements done right can be used to help a player learn the basics of a game, learn advanced techniques, try new styles of play, and goad them to try and find something that they might otherwise miss completely from the game (think of the scroll with all the funny quotes you get in TMA on the last level by dropping 5 bot bodies into the presser, I'd have never gotten that if I didn't look it up, but maybe an achievement could give me a cryptic hint). Achievements done right aren't a piece of steak or a gold star, so much as a road sign, giving a direction to go in, or a new path to try out. My route has always been the mister sandman route, I knock out everything that can be blackjacked, and gas what can't. However, if there was an achievement for ghosting, I just might attempt to ghost for a level, and god forbid... I might actually enjoy the new play style and stick with it. You guys keep focusing on how it seems like it's simply gold stars, or how it's the size of your proverbial gamer , it can be much more than that if it's done right. Sure, some people are achievement whores, my friend Tyrel is one, but just because 1/50 people will play a game for the achievements doesn't mean they can't serve a greater purpose for a greater number of people.
    signature image
    signature image

  9. #34
    Not sure about PS3, but on the Xbox 360, you can just switch all Notifications to 'off'.

    I agree about the entire premise of achievements in general, though. Absolutely childish and ridiculous.
    signature image

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Hype: Once again it's detracting form time better spent on things more important. The rewards of becoming a Master Thief and dancing circles around enemies powerful enough to destroy an entire city and doing it through acquired skills is the ultimate. In the older titles, and not much at all in TDS, the player is able to do a hundred things the devs never intended, as well as the things the devs knew could be done, but are outside the storyline, etc. The fact that so many people look for cheats and walkthroughs rather than looking to master themselves is not something to be rewarded by focusing on external rewards. Level design and player invention through trying unexpected things will always trump the devs trying to build in pats on the back whenever the player done something cool or good. Keep any pats on the back in the training mission. Once again, let the devs build a game for adults with more time (aka, more chances) to get Thief right, before any new stuff. Hoping to get more people playing Thief 4 is not a good goal if it means watering or dumbing it down. TDS didn't introduce a lot of people to Thief, it introduced people to TDS, and that has ended up being a big negative, in spite of all the positives eclipsed by the bad--especially the outsider feel in both factions. It's not a child's game, dammit!

  11. #36
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,518
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Hype: Once again it's detracting form time better spent on things more important. The rewards of becoming a Master Thief and dancing circles around enemies powerful enough to destroy an entire city and doing it through acquired skills is the ultimate. In the older titles, and not much at all in TDS, the player is able to do a hundred things the devs never intended, as well as the things the devs knew could be done, but are outside the storyline, etc. The fact that so many people look for cheats and walkthroughs rather than looking to master themselves is not something to be rewarded by focusing on external rewards.
    It takes probably 1 minute to come up with a list of achievements, 10 if you bother to make the kind that I am arguing for o.O if that, so your precious development time is more than safe - and if it's being ported to 360 (which is a very high probability) then they will be there - whether you like it or not. PC gamers won't have to deal with it unless they buy it on steam, in which case they might be there too.

    I can't name a game to date that has it's very own integrated "achievement system" outside FLASH games and newgrounds.com, and that would be stupid and a complete waste of time, and is not what I'm talking about. I'm merely arguing that achievements aren't just a stupid number which has no real meaning, well they are... but they can also have a positive influence on gameplay, they just have to be done correctly, rather than mindlessly putting a number next to another one like "get 10,000 kills for 50 gamerscore".

    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Level design and player invention through trying unexpected things will always trump the devs trying to build in pats on the back whenever the player done something cool or good. Keep any pats on the back in the training mission.
    Thanks for supporting what I'm saying, that achievements should be a goad, a roadsign, a guide - not a pat on the back "Congrats, you got 10k kills!".

    Originally Posted by jtr7
    Once again, let the devs build a game for adults with more time (aka, more chances) to get Thief right, before any new stuff. Hoping to get more people playing Thief 4 is not a good goal if it means watering or dumbing it down. TDS didn't introduce a lot of people to Thief, it introduced people to TDS, and that has ended up being a big negative, in spite of all the positives eclipsed by the bad--especially the outsider feel in both factions. It's not a child's game, dammit!
    Achievements aren't what waters a game down, just like a game being on a console doesn't make a game bad, the constant use of logical falacies on these forums is really starting to get quite frustrating.

    I agree, it isn't a child's game, but achievements, just as cartoons and videogames, don't have to be a childish endeavor. I'm arguing for mature achievements beyond the scope of getting X kills or X blackjacks. And if we really want to make them even less childish? Make them an exercise in delayed gratification, meaning you don't get the achievement until you complete that playthrough of the game - removing instant gratification and that bit of childishness from the award system, but where would the fun in that be? (except seeing my friend Tyrel's face when I told him about it)
    signature image
    signature image

  12. #37
    Achievements are just another piece of consolitus, they have no place in a serious game. Unfortunately since every game nowadays is a 360 game, T4 will most likely be infected with it. The only thing i could hope for is that they are completely transparent and you have to open an additional menu page to view them or something like that. If they display on screen every time you've completed one then it will be just more consolitus that will have to be modded out. If achievements are required for certain aspects of the game, like to unlock stuff, etc... then that will be even harder to fix. I've never been interested in achievements, etc... in any game, maybe because i'm older than 12. Also alot of the times the game suffers for it. Take for example the crappy console achievements and goals implemented in NFS: Shift, which is suppose to be a serious race game. There's one where you are rewarded for spinning out or crashing opponents, even in MP. Unfreakinbelievable!

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Achievements water a game down by taking up development time for something embarrassingly childish. Someone has to code these these in, set them up, with counters and parameters and zones, and write the title of the achievement, and often make a little graphic. What a waste. We're talking hours of bothering with this stuff. What comes first, a playtester or dev playing through a map and doing something that makes them giddy which they want to build an achievement for, or designing the map to see if the playtesters can find them, kinda like testing to see how thorough they are? Probably both.

  14. #39
    Learning to swim would be a great achievement indeed.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Heh heh...



    Hey! We could make achievements for the devs instead of the other way around!

  16. #41
    I'd like to see a carb or vitamin-related achievement where Garrett gets a little trophy when he manages to eat enough apples and deer legs.

    In the same vein, I'd like to him have a cholesterol level meter in the HUD. It is important to eat healthy.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,701
    "Garrett runs down a corridor leaping into the air every time there is a light, each light he hits releases a large spinning gold coin if he catches this coin he gets extra abilities......

    .... as he runs he picks mushrooms and throws then at guards before disappearing into the sewers ...

    ...he has also taken to wearing a hat, dungarees and a moustache...

    ..the voice overs have an italian accent..."

    esme starts in a cold sweat "nooooooo......" she murmurs as she fights to wakefulness from the nightmare

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Hahahahaha! Super Garrett World!

  19. #44
    Achievements are for games you don't take seriously. Anyone that cares enough about the game to spend hours suggesting and bickering and offering suggestions and opinions almost all of which most likely never be considered by the people making the game probably doesn't fall into that group.
    But I'm right.

  20. #45
    You are being way to negative_len.

  21. #46
    There are plenty of games that wont show any of the achievements until after the mission when you are on some sort of stats page already. It makes it more suspenseful for those seeking difficult achievements and it would keep from annoying us in our immersion in game. If the devs do that i agree with Hypevosa that achievements aren't all bad. Besides since it sounds like most of you abhor consoles I'm sure you would never be hypocrites and own a console... in which case the arguing against achievements is a moot point.
    "This city could do with more red." "That's our lives your talking about!" "I'll probably be horrified once I'm sober."

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    I don't own a console, and the anti-console arguments are really anti-mainstream-crap arguments. You haven't noticed that, eh? There are plenty of taffers that own consoles and can't stand the mainstream crap, either. It's also anti-console crap in Thief, more than anything, not anti-consoles across the board.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    20
    It is sad that there are retarded "achievements" in games now, and no "secrets" count like in Thief 2.
    Achievements aren't what waters a game down, just like a game being on a console doesn't make a game bad
    It does, especially in case of Thief this is undisputed, because the most important thing in this game is immersion.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1

    Cool Now this would be an achiement...

    Everytime Garrett is "killed", caught, lost or whatever the achievement gets reset to zero.

    I'm in the camp that pulls out DP and MA every few years for a new run through.

    Don't see the need for a lot of effort on "achievments"

  25. #50
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I don't own a console, and the anti-console arguments are really anti-mainstream-crap arguments. You haven't noticed that, eh? There are plenty of taffers that own consoles and can't stand the mainstream crap, either. It's also anti-console crap in Thief, more than anything, not anti-consoles across the board.
    Given that mainstream almost always accompanies multi-platform games, I'd say it's reasonable to be hostile to consoles.
    A rod of iron, in the flame, is transfigured and is no more.
    Thou canst never return unchanged from the forge.

Page 2 of 3 First First 123 Last