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Thread: “Regaining Consciousness and Applied Countermeasures”

“Regaining Consciousness and Applied Countermeasures”

  1. #126
    LMAO Rasta of Space man thats some funny S*** but true ina way Predator is badass though.

    Platinum has agood idea there would make Thief seem more realistic, Instead of everytime a guard see's an unconious body they think that they have been murderd and proping them up in a chair like they are asleep.

  2. #127
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    Originally Posted by Asadar
    It still requires a little thought, but I like the idea.
    I don't think it requires much at all. All you need is to animate a static pose where the character is sitting with his head down.

  3. #128
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    It's even simpler if people wouldn't actually expect to see Garrett animated from hefting the body to placing the body. I wouldn't mind it done old school to save all the extra time for the gist of the game-mechanic. The tricky part continues to be recognition from other AI and appropriate and balanced responses and variations on responses.

  4. #129
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    The main thing about the player's mechanic of positioning the body is that it can in no way interfere with the player's control. This can be achieved with the simple way I described.

    The AI needs to be improved anyway, so this new recognition and reaction system would be among a long list of improvements. In Thief 2 we got enemies that noticed if a door wasn't the way it's supposed to be or if a window has been broken. In TDS almost all aspects of the AI was made worse so it can be disqualified as a starting point. The devs should dig up the source of Thief 2 and check the logic behind the AI behavior for the initial starting point, so that the players would feel some familiarity and the fans would almost already know how to play without practice. Just like Valve checked out the movement system in the Half-Life engine code and replicated it exactly how it was in Half-Life 2's Source engine.

  5. #130
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    I like the idea of breaking a window to distract the guards. Guard coming close to seeing you, knock a broadhead, whizz, smash tinkle, guard goes to investigate, Garrett moves to a more secure hiding place while the guards back is turned. It would give us something to shoot at with those thousands of Broadhead arrows we keep picking up and never using.

    I did try it once or twice in TDS by shooting at ornaments but the guard just carried on walking toward me searching instead of where the noise came from. I guess the AI was missing a lot of the "I".
    A bird in the hand is... Lunch tonight.

  6. #131
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    The bashable windows in TMA worked to get attention.

  7. #132
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    He could weave hammocks and sell them to stores.


    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Another idea... if the mission takes place during the winter and the player leaves an unconscious body outside, and the guard doesn't wake up or get woken up in the course of the mission, it counts as a kill in the stats because the person hasn't been found until morning and has frozen to death. But there's the problem that the mission would actually fail upon completion and that sounds annoying. The player would need to be educated to avoiding leaving unconscious bodies in the snow.
    Sorry, Platinum, this is one of those instances where you can get TOO realistic with a game. I mean, if you wanted to be completely real about it, probably Garrett would kill some of the guards he comes across. Bonking someone with a blunt object is not exactly non-violent. What if he had prior head-trauma? What if some burricks got loose and decided to eat him? What if he was a diabetic, and missed his insulin shot? (ok, that last one doesn't fit Thief's setting, but you get my point. There's a whole world of variables to be considered)

    I'm a big believer in simplicity. You're more likely to raise MORE questions and problems by trying to cover every angle than you are by simply finding a gameplay mechanic that works. Mess it up, and you wind up so far down the uncanny valley that you need a team of sherpas to get out.


    I do like the idea of being able to position people on chairs and furniture, though. With the ragdoll stuff, I tried so hard to get guards to sit in chairs and on couches. Why? Because theoretically, I could. You OUGHT to be able to do it!

    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    So the player could knock them out and position their bodies on chairs or beds, and if the would happen to wake up they would simply think that they had sat down for a second to rest and fallen asleep. They would never report anything like that to avoid being fired from their position.
    If there was a way to make it so you can reposition once-sleeping guards back on their beds, so they're not noticed if another guard walks through the room, that would be nice. Nothing irritates me more than bonking a guard who was sleeping on the head, chucking him back on his bed, and having a surprise guard walk through the door and say "Hells Bells! Murder! Murder!" when the first guard hasn't changed position at all!
    Comes a man, less one eye, to carry me again...

  8. #133
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    Originally Posted by BlooferLady
    Sorry, Platinum, this is one of those instances where you can get TOO realistic with a game. I mean, if you wanted to be completely real about it, probably Garrett would kill some of the guards he comes across. Bonking someone with a blunt object is not exactly non-violent. What if he had prior head-trauma? What if some burricks got loose and decided to eat him? What if he was a diabetic, and missed his insulin shot? (ok, that last one doesn't fit Thief's setting, but you get my point. There's a whole world of variables to be considered)

    I'm a big believer in simplicity. You're more likely to raise MORE questions and problems by trying to cover every angle than you are by simply finding a gameplay mechanic that works. Mess it up, and you wind up so far down the uncanny valley that you need a team of sherpas to get out.
    Leaving the unconscious body of a guard lying in the snow is pretty much the same as dropping them in water. Just don't do it. It's not that complicated. Or you could just do it, but not on Expert.

    Originally Posted by BlooferLady
    I do like the idea of being able to position people on chairs and furniture, though. With the ragdoll stuff, I tried so hard to get guards to sit in chairs and on couches. Why? Because theoretically, I could. You OUGHT to be able to do it!
    It doesn't have to be "ragdoll"-based when it's on the chair. The guards that normally sit on chairs have an animation for that. An unconscious guard sleeping on a chair would simply have a different animation. It wouldn't be a ragdoll object that tumbles to the ground the first moment you touch it. That would be extremely annoying.

  9. #134
    Originally Posted by BlooferLady View Post
    I do like the idea of being able to position people on chairs and furniture, though. With the ragdoll stuff, I tried so hard to get guards to sit in chairs and on couches. Why? Because theoretically, I could. You OUGHT to be able to do it!
    Yep, agree with Platinum.
    "Ragdoll" is used when you just throw the body somewhere. But with a possible interraction with chair/bed, you can just "teleport" the body on it, directly in the good posture. With an well chosen icon and may be a slight visual effect, the teleportation of the body from the Garret shoulder to the chair / bed will almost unnoticed.
    After all when Garrett picks up the body is the same thing.

    Originally Posted by Asadar
    It still requires a little thought, but I like the idea.
    Now that I've thought about it a bit, I love the idea. Simple and effective. And that does not derogate from the universe and mechanics of the game.
    "There are only two things infinite: the universe and human stupidity. Except for the universe I am not sure." - Einstein

  10. #135
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Leaving the unconscious body of a guard lying in the snow is pretty much the same as dropping them in water. Just don't do it. It's not that complicated. Or you could just do it, but not on Expert.
    Hmm. I personally don't want to have to go through a list of what may or may not kill a guard. You'd have to add in prolonged proximity to a heat source as well. And any environmental hazard that injures/kills them should injure/kill Garrett. If I park his butt in a snowy shadow, and go get myself a sandwich, he'd better be a thief-sicle by the time I get back, or there's no reason for a guard to die from exposure.

    Like I said, I'm more for simplicity, even if it takes away a bit of the realism. I don't want to have to keep track of body heat. The only game I've ever played where you have to keep track of people's core body temperatures is the Season's expansion on the Sims 2. Now, if I'm focused on getting into a mansion, getting my loot, and getting out, I don't want to have to worry about it! Feel free to call me lazy. And I do still think it opens up a whole bunch of other possible deaths for guards. It could very easily get ridiculous.

    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    It doesn't have to be "ragdoll"-based when it's on the chair. The guards that normally sit on chairs have an animation for that. An unconscious guard sleeping on a chair would simply have a different animation. It wouldn't be a ragdoll object that tumbles to the ground the first moment you touch it. That would be extremely annoying.
    No, I didn't think you were wanting to keep it ragdoll based. It's much better to have a separate animation.
    Comes a man, less one eye, to carry me again...

  11. #136
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    Originally Posted by BlooferLady
    ...he'd better be a thief-sicle by the time I get back...
    More like a guard-sicle...

  12. #137
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    Copsicle sticks! Break 'em in half and share! \o/

  13. #138


    Yep, having to keep an eye on the temperature of a unconscious guard to not kill him would push the games mecanism a bit far for my taste. But two separate animations to put a body on a chair or on a body would be fun and usefull to hide a body without declenche the alarm if a guard find it.

    I can well imagine the guard was doing to wake up getting yelled by the other one and looking confused. ^^
    "There are only two things infinite: the universe and human stupidity. Except for the universe I am not sure." - Einstein

  14. #139
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    Well, according to the PAX 2010 DX:HR live demo speaker and writer, Mary DeMarle, KO'd AIs can be found and awakened aside from the usual AI reaction upon finding a body of going on alert and possibly running to an alarm or to another AI, and it was suggested to hide bodies to prevent those consequences. It was not mentioned about AIs waking themselves, how well awakened AIs perform, or if AIs notice missing AIs. Assuming T4 shares concepts and code for the areas the two franchises have always overlapped, T4 may very well have AIs waking up other AIs, at least.

  15. #140
    Thank for the information jtr.
    "There are only two things infinite: the universe and human stupidity. Except for the universe I am not sure." - Einstein

  16. #141

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    I very much like this idea.

    To be honest I've always felt a bit uncomfortable with the whole blackjacking thing. It feels more like baby seal clubbing than something non violent. I would even like to take it one small step further and propose they remove the blackjack altogether. (I realise many will probably instinctively protest now but please give me a chance to explain.)

    First of all, it has always been possible to take out enemies by backstabbing with the sword or by shooting a single broadheaded arrow, as long as you remain undetected. Killing should only be allowed on "easy mode" though and city threat level (CTL) might help discourage a murder spree as well.

    Instead of blackjacking I would prefer if Garrett simply put a hand over the mouth and his knife/sword against the throat and then walked to some safe location and tied and gagged them--no need to hurt anyone. Gas arrows/mines would still knock enemies out, but only for a limited and random period of time so you still would be encouraged to hide and tie them.

    When gagged, enemies should make muffled sounds and let out damped cries for help so you need to hide them properly or else a guard might hear them and investigate, in which case he will free them of course and they will sound the alarm.

    This would have several advantages in my opinion:
    * It would be more realistic. Seriously, there is no safe way to knock someone out by hitting them on the head. I suspect a large percentage would get permanent brain damage if not outright die due to internal bleeding, swelling or suffocation (eg drowning on own vomit). Simply gagging someone is much more benevolent, which is another advantage:
    * It would be less violent.
    * It would make it possible to interrogate opponents like matdmcc2 suggested (that's how it actually works in splinter cell I think). (It would also give an opportunity for humorous dialogue).
    * It would make gas arrows a bit more powerful.
    * It would help balance the difficulty:

    When I started playing I mostly used the blackjack but when a friend showed me you could take out guards at a safe distance with a single broadheaded arrow that was just to convenient to pass up. After finishing the game that actually encouraged me to try again to see if I could do it without killing anyone (as enforced by expert mode as well). It was still possible to club everyone with the blackjack though, so only difference was I had to use the much more rare gas arrow instead of broadheaded ones.

    Not having the blackjack would scale better because:
    On easy mode you can go on as before and take everyone out (by murdering everyone). Aside from making you feel like an amateur and a psychopath CTL would help discourage this.
    On normal mode you would have a large supply of gags, rope and possibly gas arrows so you can take out a lot of opponents, but now you need to plan and hide bodies more carefully.
    On expert mode you only have a limited supply of gags, rope and gas.
    On "Garrett" mode you are only allowed to take out those guards that are absolutely necessarry (if not all levels should be ghostable).

  17. #142
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    ...............

  18. #143
    I can imagine LGS implemented the blackjack as an easy compromise instead of all of the above and knocking out guards makes a certain satisfying thump I'll admit. The blackjack has also become something of a symbol of the thief games.

    I think my post was unnecessary long and complicated though. Aside from Vae's suggestion I only propose the blackjack animation is replaced by a grab and hold animation, thereby also giving Garrett a chance to interrogate people and together with gagging it makes knocking out unnecessary.

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