Thread: “Regaining Consciousness and Applied Countermeasures”

“Regaining Consciousness and Applied Countermeasures”

  1. #51
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    but your list makes KO artificially lower because of the fact that you apply it to all ko weapons (the rareness, scarcity, expensiveness, etc) when really all you need is the blackjack.

    It neglects the various AI immunities to KO as well, and the fact that there is nothing completely immune to lethal weapons as well.

    If you took these to mind when looking at your list, your numbers would probably change.

    I prize non-lethality so much because playing on expert to me is vastly important, resulting in a greater challenge due to better guards, and sometimes more content like in the bonehoard... thinking about it that level is probably the one reason I began playing all of thief on expert.
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  2. #52
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    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    I prize non-lethality so much because playing on expert to me is vastly important, resulting in a greater challenge due to better guards, and sometimes more content like in the bonehoard... thinking about it that level is probably the one reason I began playing all of thief on expert.
    Don't get me wrong... I always play on expert and I never blackjack anyone. I hardly ever buy any equipment because I rarely need anything other than rope arrows or a few water arrows. I just think that players who want to KO enemies shouldn't need to hurry through levels after they've knocked someone out. It doesn't go well with the idea of Thief.

    +With the modern trend of dumbing down games, I don't think that guards waking up will ever be implemented.

  3. #53
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    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    I just think that players who want to KO enemies shouldn't need to hurry through levels after they've knocked someone out. It doesn't go well with the idea of Thief.
    I agree, they shouldn't have to hurry...and with "binds" as a countermeasure, they won't have to...

  4. #54
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    Well, if it were me personally playing this, since KOing everyone is my style... I don't think I would want/use binds. Not that I need to have more of a challenge than I already do - or more so an annoyance because of guards all waking up and having to re-ko them - but I would appreciate the random occurrence where someone awakened. I would stop throwing bodies into dark corners and actually put them in rooms - preferably ones only I have a key to so I can lock them in - I may hide them on a roof top that i can throw them to without them sustaining grievous injury. As a preference of taste, I wouldn't bind people so much as put them somewhere out of the way. Mainly because I don't see Garrett binding people (in my mind's image at least) and also because I would find it hilarious to hear and see that guard dancing on that rooftop yelling because he can't get down, or banging on the door complaining he had to take a piss or something. I would find comedic value in it - where binding I just wouldn't find as fun or funny.

    Having more lockable rooms would be a simpler solution than creating the codes, animations, and other things associated with the idea of binding. Though the code for the AI trying to escape and the voice acting for it may be just as much work thinking about it.
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  5. #55
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    The "lockable" door could be used to great advantage in some levels. You could force AI to take a longer route to chase you, or even barricade yourself in while you work on a window or safe.
    However, doing this in every level may prove tiresome.

  6. #56
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    there are already lockable doors, but the problem is that the ai all had all the keys and could reopen them. Not having them have keys to every door would be nice for T4, and allow people to use keys to their advantage. It also gives a purpose to having them when you can normally lockpick a door anyways.
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  7. #57
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    There could be a new button for "lock door" in the keyboard bindings. When you highlight a lockable door, you can lock it even if you don't have the key in your inventory. Because you know, doors have that switch that allows you to lock them. At least from one side.

  8. #58
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    An interesting idea, but I don't know that there are any doors in Thief that use the idea of being lockable from at least one side - lest you have a key.

    I feel it would be better for gameplay to have the doors lockable from both sides, and only unlockable if you have a key/lockpicks.

    Oh that's an interesting premise... KOing another thief and walking by the room you locked him in and hearing the lockpicks going off in the door. I can see alot of people being rather confused for a few seconds before realizing what's going on and rushing to a shadow lol
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  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by Hypevosa
    ...hearing the lockpicks going off in the door.
    That reminds me... could be an interesting gameplay detail if guards would actually fumble their keychains on the door for a few seconds (when in 0 alert of course) before they open a door. Since they're in no hurry during their patrols. So when the player is in the room the door is leading to he can hear the guard unlocking the door before it actually opens and have a few extra seconds to hide.

  10. #60
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    That reminds me... could be an interesting gameplay detail if guards would actually fumble their keychains on the door for a few seconds (when in 0 alert of course) before they open a door. Since they're in no hurry during their patrols. So when the player is in the room the door is leading to he can hear the guard unlocking the door before it actually opens and have a few extra seconds to hide.
    A clear "Yes" to that.

  11. #61
    Yeah , actually that would be really good. +1 @ Platinumoxicity

  12. #62
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    I could go for that, it wouldn't be a huge addition, just a short key sorting animation with a jingling sound just before the door is frobbed (or whatever the T4 equivalent is) to open it

  13. #63
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    that assumes they have a key ring though, and then what happens - can players not pickpocket it? Do you really give the player all the keys he needs at once? Do the guards really have the keys to every door on them? or does the guard really have just one key and somehow have to fumble through a keyring for it?

    you don't need a key jingling animation, so much as the sound of them actually inserting the key into the lock and turning it, and then actually opening the door with their hands, then relocking the door before entering and closing it (they always re-lock the door). That would be more than enough time I would think, and we don't have to worry about AI's with 20 keys, or not being able to be pickpocketed etc. Just new and more complete animations.

    If someone has a reason to have every key to the place (like the captain of the guard or someone) I wouldn't bar the idea of the key ring though - the question is should it be pickpocketable? Should it make noise and alert him to the fact his pocket's been picked? Should we have to KO him or something to get said keys?
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  14. #64
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    take key off belt, unlock door, open, go through, re lock door, put key back on belt, ok no jingle

    little more complicated for a keyring, and possibly a jingle

    if the guard has it then I'm all for being able to pickpocket it, I really didn't like how AI could still open locked doors after I'd taken their key

    as for a keyring jingling when pickpocketed I don't see why they should, after all purses full of coins don't jingle when taken

  15. #65
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    Or, make it the Captains that have a keyring but can't be KO'd, so you can pickpocket the keyring but can only lock the Captains in rooms to prevent them chasing you. It's not elegant but 1 or 2 in a few levels would add a nice "gamey" element. Plus you could hear them shouting for help so that would lure others that you could KO.

  16. #66
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Don't get me wrong... I always play on expert and I never blackjack anyone. I hardly ever buy any equipment because I rarely need anything other than rope arrows or a few water arrows. I just think that players who want to KO enemies shouldn't need to hurry through levels after they've knocked someone out. It doesn't go well with the idea of Thief.

    +With the modern trend of dumbing down games, I don't think that guards waking up will ever be implemented.
    That still doesn't get away from the fact that as far as KO vs Kill goes, there's no difference and therefore no real choice. Why kill when you can just KO if there's zero difference?

    At the very least they should be revived by their comrades but I still think that there should be a randomly generated range of time (depending on difficulty) on them walking up and raising awareness to the situation unless you bound and gagged them.

    But that's not going to make for very interesting gameplay... the binding and gagging I mean....unless you're into that sort of thing.

    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    That reminds me... could be an interesting gameplay detail if guards would actually fumble their keychains on the door for a few seconds (when in 0 alert of course) before they open a door. Since they're in no hurry during their patrols. So when the player is in the room the door is leading to he can hear the guard unlocking the door before it actually opens and have a few extra seconds to hide.
    Sounds tense!
    Rent is due \o/ Please keep all new ideas outside of the traditional Thief formula to yourself. They are not welcome here.

  17. #67
    i agree with shadow fox, if you're close enough to kill than you're close enough to k.o (which doesn't leave blood everywhere)

    unless wer're talking zombies...
    "I should have expected trouble when the coffee failed to arrive"- Liet-Kynes

  18. #68
    Just a very bad idea came to my mind. It was so dirty that I now have to spit it out to clean my head.

    What if... killed npc's... for some story related reason... came back as undead? But unconscious one's did not?

    Ok, I now it means a total mess on gameplay... but just imagine that

    About gags and rope ties:
    There is just something that "sounds" out of the thievish way, but I can't identify it. The idea on the "other thread" about spider silk sounds better, even if sounds like "spider-man" What I try to mean is, the mechanic or the logic behind the idea sounds solid, just the method sounds... too... "kinky"?

    We already know of gas arrows. A "silencing gas?" would be nice. You can launch it as an arrow, or use it on a ko victim so that they can't use vocal sound as a communication method. Tieing them is ok.

  19. #69
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    Moss could be used to gag, or perhaps vines to bind...spider silk could work as well. I think it would be important to have a visual countermeasure in order to know the status of the unconscious AI.

  20. #70
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    Originally Posted by windwalker
    Just a very bad idea came to my mind. It was so dirty that I now have to spit it out to clean my head.

    What if... killed npc's... for some story related reason... came back as undead? But unconscious one's did not?

    Ok, I now it means a total mess on gameplay... but just imagine that
    We've talked about it. It could happen once in awhile, or even the dead AI's apparition could appear, especially in areas where there are obvious necromantic energies pooling. It should be rare, and non-existent in most areas, and I'd like it best in a later mission where the games usually start changing things on the player as things get more serious approaching the end-game, when usual tactics don't always work, and the player has to think.



    I'm still overall against giving Garrett more items, more gear, or punishing kinder acts of violence and making the worst stuff rewarding.

  21. #71
    The only place that I think it's ok to see killed guards turn into zombies would be a hammerite place. The hammerites could turn into haunts. Oh, wait. Haunts comes from desecrate and disturbed hammerite graves. I need to think of this.
    ^This is a part of the core design and a fundamental of Thief!

  22. #72
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    I think Garrett's activities should create desecration of Hammerite graves. Thankfully, the Mystic's Heart in the Bonehoard is a perfect example of Garrett desecrating a Hammerite grave and spawning a Haunt, although, if Haunts themselves are abhorrent and are possessed bodies, then they shouldn't seem like guardians, but yeah.

  23. #73
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    I like the idea, but if you only KO guards you wouldn't see how it "changes" the mission, so may be forced to kill them just to experience the difference. Care would need to be taken to balance the mission difficulty properly.

  24. #74
    hehe, this will make for some funny screenshots of rooms full of gaged guards

    I wonder how guards would react finding room like that.
    Violence - Easy, Effective, Practical. Technology of the future!

  25. #75
    Pagans could under some circumstances turn into some sort of beasts. Maybe just the shamans?

    Hammerites turn into hammerhaunts
    Pagans turn into beasts.
    The City Watch turn into...spiders? (jk)
    ^This is a part of the core design and a fundamental of Thief!

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