Thread: “Regaining Consciousness and Applied Countermeasures”

“Regaining Consciousness and Applied Countermeasures”

  1. #26
    I like the OP's idea, however this needs to be very well balanced so that taffers won't be running around binding and gagging everyone.

    I don't know if anyone here remembers the way it was done in the Commandos games (obviously they haven't got much to do with Thief, but still). You'd knock a nazi guy down and you could bind and gag him (eventually carry him out of the way). It was pretty useful when you wanted to use stealth to make your way around the levels, which is obviously the point of all Thief games.

    So, yeah, definitely a great idea. I would like to see this implemented in Thi4f.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    It shouldn't make killing look appealing or the easy way.

  3. #28
    It could be a new gear. You have enough rope and cloth to bind, let's say 5 people? Choose carefully.
    ^This is a part of the core design and a fundamental of Thief!

  4. #29
    Actually I've always thought the Commandos games had a lot in common with Thief, you had to plan, even more so than in Thief and you couldn't succeed in the game without being stealthy.
    They're actually my second favourite game series after Thief.
    Jesus Saves
    But the Buddha does incremental back ups.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,639
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    Then you'd need blindfolds too. Because if after some time of exploring you revisit the room where you left the tied-up guard, the guard has woken up and he can see you, so he's a witness. That counts as 1 on the "caught" stat. So you'll have to put him out of his misery because he made you by seeing your face.
    The player would have control over this by stashing the body out of the way or by facing the body towards a wall, so that in the event of reawakening, the AI will not be able to see Garrett's return to the area...but you may hear some grumbling if he/she/it is not gagged...

    The idea here is to be more thoughtful when it comes to violence, as it is discouraged with this feature because of the limited supply of "binds" offered to the player...just like water arrows.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    I can see this working with forced no-kills, but if killing's allowed, what's stopping the typical gamer from just making sure there are no witnesses, or that witnesses are no problem? Killing's much faster and unless the game has unfavorable but realistic consequences--what they call "punishing the player"--or forced no-kills, how can binding, gagging, and stashing be made rewarding to the general populace? Once I learned what the real in-game consequences of getting caught, or having bodies found, or leaving witnesses, or creating chase sequences were, I stopped worrying, since I've only once been able to savor full missions, having limited game-time always, though I think the typical gamer reflects the same attitude for different reasons of impatience and a desire to clear levels of AIs and frobbable things.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,639
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I can see this working with forced no-kills, but if killing's allowed, what's stopping the typical gamer from just making sure there are no witnesses, or that witnesses are no problem? Killing's much faster and unless the game has unfavorable but realistic consequences--what they call "punishing the player"--or forced no-kills, how can binding, gagging, and stashing be made rewarding to the general populace?
    You bring up a good point, which is that the player has been overpowered in all THIEF games (especially TDS). CTL is one solution for this, and I think it would work well with this feature. Alternatively, if T4 just uses the static difficulty levels, then it would need to have killing only allowed on the easiest setting.

    Once I learned what the real in-game consequences of getting caught, or having bodies found, or leaving witnesses, or creating chase sequences were, I stopped worrying...
    And therein lies the problem. This is precisely when immersion is compromised, and repetitive, impatient behavior often begins...diminishing the richness/challenge of THIEF by the player having too much control over their environment . By having the mechanics of the game no longer a mystery, the player sees the game differently. A remedy would be implementing appropriate new features that enliven and dimensionalize play via randomization, so that the player never gains total control over the game. Thus, mystery and tension remain a constant, encouraging one to be mindful, as opposed to just going through the motions (boring).

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    490
    Getting caught and having bodies discovered are going to require two different forms of "punishment" as one could happen in real time whereas the other might only be known after exiting the mission. I'm not against this idea, but it's either going to "stat based" or having Garrett "hobbled" in the following mission.
    If it's stat based I like the idea of increasing the cost of gear because he's drawing too much attention and the suppliers are getting nervous.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    Originally Posted by Flashart
    If it's stat based I like the idea of increasing the cost of gear because he's drawing too much attention and the suppliers are getting nervous.
    That is a simple and great idea. Didn't even think of that.

    Although it does work against the difficulty levels again since expert players never leave evidence and thus never get that increased difficulty by increased prices. Then again who needs equipment anyway? Might as well artificially make the game harder by not buying any stuff between missions.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,639
    Originally Posted by Flashart
    Getting caught and having bodies discovered are going to require two different forms of "punishment" as one could happen in real time whereas the other might only be known after exiting the mission. I'm not against this idea, but it's either going to "stat based" or having Garrett "hobbled" in the following mission.
    No need to "hobble" Garrett, as this wouldn't be any fun and is unnecessary. Any in-mission "punishment" would be realized by an AI awakening without any countermeasures being taken. Of course, this type of "punishment" can add a lot of fun to the game...

    If it's stat based I like the idea of increasing the cost of gear because he's drawing too much attention and the suppliers are getting nervous.
    Good idea...the CTL could be used to dynamically adjust supply prices.

  11. #36
    I can't remember... did the guards wake up in T2 if you blackjacked them?


    I like the idea of the absence of a guard being noted by other ones. I always have a tiny fear that that'll happen in Thief DP but it never happens. I think it would be cool to at least acknowledge that the fellow guard is gone. Say something like "Hey, where's you go." or "Guess he went on break early." or some other classic saying a guard would mumble.
    Calls The Serpents To The Heels Of My Foes! Calls The Ravens To Pecks Their Eyes!
    Calls The Jackals, Carry Thems Away. Their Children To Gnaw Bones In The Night!

  12. #37
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,639
    AI (guards) never awaken after you blackjack them in any THIEF game. I like the idea of guards being aware of other guards, but the impact on gameplay needs to be considered.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    But to discourage people from killing guards, should the killed guards wake up even sooner than the knocked-out guards?

    Let's recap on the pros and cons of killing and KO:ing. On present Thief settings.

    Killing:
    +Cheap weapons
    +Powerful and practical weapons
    +Abundant weapons
    +Killed AI don't come back
    -Noisy
    -Messy
    -Mark of an amateur

    KO:ing
    +Non-lethal weapon
    +Clean
    +Quiet
    +Knocked-out AI don't come back
    -Very expensive weapons
    -Very scarce weapons
    -Limited use of weapons

    So the score is an even +1 for both tactics. Apply the pros or cons that your ideas add to this stat and you can balance out the stats of both tactics. As you can see, if you make the enemies wake up spontaneously from a knock-out, that makes lethal tactics superior. It's not fair but it makes killing even more of an amateur thing to do. Well... maybe not that but it makes KO:in even more 1337 thing to do.

    P.S. I could've included the KO:ing con "ineffective against undead" but that's a special category I think.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,701
    Killing = killing
    KO'ing = counting coup
    they never knew you were there = full indian headdress of coup achievement

  15. #40
    Vae, I really like how you see both sides, and I agree. I feel that by itself, it is too uncontrollable, but if it was implemented with special circumstances or very unlikely it could work well.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    490
    But you could be in a whole different area of the level when the guard wakes up, unless you return you would not suffer any penalty, so you would have to penalize Garrett in the subsequent mission.
    Or perhaps you could have guards that reawaken sound an alarm so that all AI is on a higher alert, or more lights get put on, or more doors are locked etc.

  17. #42
    If many guards is killed during a mission, the next mission should have more or harder guards. More health, better weapons (if there is such things like axes, crossbows, spears and pikes) and more cautious because they read in "The City News" that criminals are getting more violent and it's a hard time for guards and things like that. You could here the guards mumble something about it in the next mission or have two guards talk about how "poor Alan is with the builder".
    ^This is a part of the core design and a fundamental of Thief!

  18. #43
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    Originally Posted by Yaphy
    If many guards is killed during a mission, the next mission should have more or harder guards. More health, better weapons (if there is such things like axes, crossbows, spears and pikes) and more cautious because they read in "The City News" that criminals are getting more violent and it's a hard time for guards and things like that. You could here the guards mumble something about it in the next mission or have two guards talk about how "poor Alan is with the builder".
    Then my gameplay consists of first killing everyone and causing major mayhem in a mission so that the next mission will have extra difficulty, then playing the next mission in a normal stealthy fashion with the extra difficulty, then restarting that mission and killing everyone again so that the next job will have the extra difficulty.

    I have to play through each mission extremely badly so that I can play through them well.

  19. #44
    Slightly off-topic:

    I think that the choice of whether to kill or blackjack guards was always about taking the "classier" way to finish the level.

    I mean yes, the user was indeed forced not to kill anyone when playing with a higher difficulty level, but at the normal level (which is, presumably, what a majority of players will use at first) he was still allowed to choose.

    People that played the game the "right way" were rewarded with a richer, truer experience (i.e. the thrill of waiting in the shadows, analyzing the guards' patrol patterns and finally making your move) versus the "run and gun" players, which in my opinion don't get what the game is really about. The latter category gets a messier, more frustrating (IMO) and just an infinitely more shallow experience.

    My point is, at least at a normal difficulty level, players should be able to make the kill vs. don't kill choice without repercussions in future missions. Killing someone in that particular mission should, however, be loud, messy and just made to be a very OBVIOUS wrong choice in terms of how the mission should be done, without actually constraining the player not to kill. It's a very delicate balance, in my opinion.

    Higher difficulty levels should have the "do not kill anyone" rule, though.

    Anyway, sorry for the off-topic, I just felt I had to blurt that out, haha

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    The story itself states repeatedly that Garrett himself does not kill humans, and even the two deaths he was credited for by the quarreling Keepers, were caused by the deceased's own hands after Garrett redirected their power back at themselves without them knowing they were about to annihilate themselves. Over and over again, in many ways, the games themselves remind the player they are thieves not murderers, masters not amateurs, skilled not sloppy.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    The story itself states repeatedly that Garrett himself does not kill humans, and even the two deaths he was credited for by the quarreling Keepers, were caused by the deceased's own hands after Garrett redirected their power back at themselves without them knowing they were about to annihilate themselves. Over and over again, in many ways, the games themselves remind the player they are thieves not murderers, masters not amateurs, skilled not sloppy.
    ...although the TDS devs assumed Ramirez dead probably because it was possible to kill him in Thief 1.

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

    P.S. I could've included the KO:ing con "ineffective against undead" but that's a special category I think.
    You forgot the Blackjack 2.0.
    A burrick is for life, not just for Buildermas!

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,701
    how about blackjack 3.0, the tactical nuke of blackjacks, merely arming yourself with it sends every AI in a 3 block radius to sleep

    or blackjack 4.0 the "the neutron bomb blackjack", wield this once and every AI in the level disappears in a puff of smoke along with every locked door or portcullis, all secrets reveal themselves and any levers you need to throw or buttons you need to press to open paths are done for you, then you drop the blackjack and it goes and fetches all the loot and achieves all the objectives for you so you can have a 100% record to show your mates

  24. #49
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,518
    Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity
    But to discourage people from killing guards, should the killed guards wake up even sooner than the knocked-out guards?

    Let's recap on the pros and cons of killing and KO:ing. On present Thief settings.

    Killing:
    +Cheap weapons
    +Powerful and practical weapons
    +Abundant weapons
    +Killed AI don't come back
    -Noisy
    -Messy
    -Mark of an amateur

    KO:ing
    +Non-lethal weapon
    +Clean
    +Quiet
    +Knocked-out AI don't come back
    -Very expensive weapons
    -Very scarce weapons
    -Limited use of weapons

    So the score is an even +1 for both tactics.
    Your analysis is flawed in that it assumes that all these pros and cons have equal weight, and that it's missing some more important factors. Remembering that killing weapons effect anyone, while some enemies are immune to, at least some forms, of KO, like humans with metal helmets, and undead with gas arrows (i think undead aren't effected by gas arrows at least, never been able to test that one).

    Killing:
    +Cheap weapons = 1
    +Powerful and practical weapons = 1, powerful does not apply, as they are not always a 1 hit kill, while all KO weapons, where effective, are one hit KO's
    +No enemy immunity to damage (barring the golden cherub thing) = 3
    +Abundant weapons = 2
    +Killed AI don't come back = 3
    -Noisy = 5
    -Messy = 2
    -Mark of an amateur = 1

    =+3 total for benefits of killing, though these are personal ratings of importance. I can care less about cost since I always have alot of cash because I steal everything, but noisy is very, very important to me, because once alerted the guards aren't 1 hit kill-able, and if a few of them come it's very difficult to deal with all of them.

    KO:ing
    +Non-lethal weapon = 5, allows me to do it on expert
    +Clean = 2
    +Quiet = 5, not dealing with multiple guards who are alerted is nice
    +Knocked-out AI don't come back = 3
    -Some enemies immune to certain KO sources = 3
    -Very expensive weapons = 1
    -Very scarce weapons = 2
    -Limited use of weapons = 3 (all these problems only apply to gas arrows though, which you only need in order to counter enemies who have helmets that provide KO protection. All the negatives for killing applied to all forms of it.)

    =+6, meaning that, at least by my standards, KOing has alot more weight and viability than killing right now. They would stand to be more equal if AI could risk coming back.
    signature image
    signature image

  25. #50
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    Your +6 on KO weapons is only because you put non-lethality as higher + than any attribute in either of the categories. Ok, not higher but i think it's not supposed to be that high. And very expensive and scarce KO weapons should have more - IMO


    but it's your list.

Page 2 of 6 First First 123456 Last