View Poll Results: Should Thief have randomized loot?

Voters
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  • Yes, I like the idea of having a fresh treasure hunt every time I play Thief.

    42 42.00%
  • No, I like loot that is in the same place, over and over again.

    58 58.00%
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Thread: "Randomized Loot"

"Randomized Loot"

  1. #1
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    "Randomized Loot"

    It would be possible to have randomized loot, so every time you played a THIEF mission, it would be different. This would be better for replayablility. You could have a mix of fixed primary loot (which makes sense for intelligent placement) and randomized secondary loot.

    I think it is time that we voted on whether to have the randomized loot feature in THIEF IV. please read the thread "Death to the loot stat" if you haven't already before voting.

    Here is an excellent example illustrated by Platinumoxity:

  2. #2
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    Yes!

    +2

    But...!

    With different randomized loot that makes sense for the randomized locations to which they are assigned, and not all possible loot locations will always have loot, but mainly in the CITY maps, which should have much more world surrounding the mission location to really randomize where and what (the type of random loot is always appropriate for where it's found). These randomized loot items are well above and beyond the mission objectives and have no bearing on the mission, nor impact the next mission, by design. It's not possible, this way, to feel gypped, and it's always possible to clean out the entire map and gloat.

  3. #3
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    No option for "no preference"?
    Follow the fortunes of the Thi4f Forum!

  4. #4
    Not only loot should be randomized like this, but also placement of some AIs.

  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by jtr7
    The devs would continue to place loot items at locations as the story they want to tell dictates. Sometimes, however, the dev may choose instead to place a Spawn-Marker at a location, assigned to a pool of objects for the appropriate type of location.

    The system would have some similarities to how an AI is assigned a randomized set of voice-files per condition.

    In this case, the Spawn-Marker would be assigned to a set of objects to randomly choose from. These object "schemas" would be written in NotePad (or current dev equivalent) and would be a set of loot object lists and conditions, just like the sound schemas are sets of grouped filenames and conditions.

    The listings would have a main heading setup like this arbitrary example...

    BEDROOMS/BARRACKS:
    Female Commoner
    Male Commoner
    Female Guard/Watchman
    Male Guard/Watchman
    Female Servant
    Male Servant
    Female Noble
    Male Noble
    Female Pagan
    Male Pagan
    Hammer

    And subgroups like Armoire, Chest, Nightstand, etc. And beneath those would be the magic list of precious items that would make sense to be found in those locations.

    Once again, the devs could always choose to place a regular loot item in a spot to tell a story. A dev could deliberately place a silk scarf on a pillow intentionally, for instance, and not use the Spawn-Marker.

    A further example for a Noble's bedroom in general, one could find a silk scarf or silver cuff-links somewhere. And for the Nightstand subgroup, one might find gold-rimmed reading glasses, or a gilded book, or both.

    Keep in mind the devs can still place regular loot anywhere they want to have it always appear for the story they want to tell--such as the child who wrote of hiding her jade comb... it would always be there.

    As with the sound schemas, the FREQUENCY that an object can be randomly chosen is definable. A really expensive item could be assigned a '1' so it can only spawn once or zero times in a map at the beginning, and a stack of gold coins could be assigned a '6' to spawn from zero to six times in the whole map at the beginning, and so on.

    The devs would choose a specific object from the hierarchy OR a specific Spawn-Marker to randomize the loot for a specific location. Heck, the devs could probably come up with an even more elegant design. One folder of text files could handle all the heavy work.
    This is a great explanation of how randomizing loot will not interfere with intelligent design. It will actually enhance intelligent design with the intelligent randomization of loot, and in relatively simple fashion to boot.

  6. #6
    I'm absolutely for this, as long as it works in a similar method as described in jtr's quote.

    Squid
    I speak to you now of the fall of giants, the passing of ages, the burial of heroes, the death of kings.

  7. #7
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    Well of course you are, since you are me and I am you, what else would you say.

  8. #8
    Thx for putting the vote up, will get interesting.

    End since this vote wasn't held neutral of personal opinions, here the counter arguments to this idea:


    Originally Posted by FriendlyStranger
    I personally think random loot amount/position is no good. I want to search through the levels. I want to know more and more everytime I run through it, until the point I know everything about the level. Thats part of the experience of exploring the secrets of the maps. If you add in random loot, I get the feeling of "uncompleteness".

    I want to know how much loot is hidden in a level. And I want to discover where it is. Randomization is one way to kill replayability, sounds paradox but is best proofed by TES4:Oblivion. They made everything random, resulting in the complete loss of the exploring fun. Whereas in TES3 you knew where you could find powerful artifacts in TES 4 you never knew if it pays off to visit place XY. That ain't fun.

    I would also like to know the amount of loot available in a level in advance of the level, or showed in a stats window in the menu. Making the perfect thieving run, is something I like to challenge myself with, but this becomes impossible, whith random loot. Random loot leads to random running around in the level, never knowing where to go. The fun of getting to know a level is destroyed.

    Originally Posted by jay pettitt
    The fun in thief isn't wandering around picking up candle-sticks. It's in the atmosphere and exploring interesting places. I really don't think a couple of bits of additional unimportant random loot is going to be quite the life-enhancing game changer some here are suggesting. I appreciate the desire to squeeze a little more Thief out of Thief, but I'm not convinced this isn't it.


    ...


    And all this possible with loot stats and non-random loot. Clearly we must petition EM to fix this desperately broken mechanic.

    Next...

  9. #9
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    I read again the death to loot stats threads and I find I am not convinced by random loot - I don't know and that's it why I vote no - if I am not sure about something I don't change something.

    this is sounding logical!
    Had a hard day? Take a Burrick!

  10. #10
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    I thought of a new dynamic to add, see the "Death to..." thread.
    Basically, if the random loot was of different values, you could end up with quite a variety of totals for the same mission. It's radical, and some won't like it, but I think it's got a nice "real" game aspect to it.

  11. #11
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    Randomized loot is good when the system is designed well. And Vae, that overview of the system I made is flawed. It doesn't take into account the logical placement of different loot items. In that scematic, you could find paintings in the kitchen cupboards and golden vases on the wall. I need to update the system proposal.

  12. #12
    I voted for no. I just overflew the idea and have to say: I just don't like it.

    I mean I loved to share the loot locations with friends back then, the time when Thief was just a fresh new game. I asked my friend, if had found the diamond on the floor of the skyroom, then he asked me if I found the one at the entrance of the Lost City. Man this were times, this game had so much depth and fun.

    this was my frist post, I hope there are many more to follow, hi@all!

    - and hey you are welcome to call me Stephen, if ya want to!

  13. #13
    I'm completely undecided (and unconvinced), but I am certain that this poll has been presented in a biased fashion 'Random Loot(tm) will be awesome - would you like thief to be awesome? Vote 'YES' to Random Loot(tm)' such that I'm afraid my sense of fairness compels me to vote no out of a desire to punish disingenuous polls.

  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by jay pettitt
    I'm completely undecided (and unconvinced), but I am certain that this poll has been presented in a biased fashion 'Random Loot(tm) will be awesome - would you like thief to be awesome? Vote 'YES' to Random Loot(tm)' such that I'm afraid my sense of fairness compels me to vote no out of a desire to punish disingenuous polls.
    Does it really matter if the poll questions are biased? I mean... you were smart enough to notice that, weren't you? That means you're smart enough to be able to vote your own opinion without letting the biased options affect your decision.

  15. #15
    Does it really matter if the poll questions are biased?
    That depends on whether or not you are genuinely wanting to canvas peoples' opinion.

    At the very least the poll would have been significantly improved by including option for those who are uncertain. The results of this poll may indicate that public opinion is for or against or indifferent, when in reality most people just might not feel sure. Expecting uncertain votes to fairly fall either side when the design of the poll expressly favours one particular answer is a little optimistic I think,

    Also, I don't really want to have to continue the discussion over two threads or turn it into a competition, but I guess that's partly unavoidable given that the forum software doesn't allow you to create a poll retrospectively.

    --edit-- actually I'm going to retract some of that. Vae's opening gambit really isn't so awful. But an option for uncertain votes would still be a marked improvement. Vote away...

  16. #16
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    For me, the other thread isn't so much about "randomized loot" as changing the game experience for each play. I'd be interested to hear from the "No" voters, if they are just against random loot, or do not want any change to occur for each playthrough the game? My views are well documented so I've tried to be unbiased in this post.

  17. #17
    for sure - it's just the cherry-picking bits of posts from the other thread and bringing them into this one and saying - 'look this is a great example of why my point of view is right and you should vote for apples' which makes me think 'sigh' - because having got involved in the other thread I'm kinda compelled now to wrestle with a load of complex issues and write posts all over again in this one.

    But that can't be helped.

  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by Flashart
    For me, the other thread isn't so much about "randomized loot" as changing the game experience for each play. I'd be interested to hear from the "No" voters, if they are just against random loot, or do not want any change to occur for each playthrough the game? My views are well documented so I've tried to be unbiased in this post.
    I don't get what's your demand again sry (language problem) - I voted no, but I don't know what you want exactly - could you write as easy as possible. Is it just you want an explanation why I voted no? or is it something else!

    I stated my reason and also Mumbojumbo made a good point I think. There is some real truth in this, it indeed is a lot of fun to talk about other have found items here and there. that is also what I have done back in school!
    Had a hard day? Take a Burrick!

  19. #19
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    I would like the Thief game to be "different" each time you play through. This could be random loot, different guard patterns, different AI for different difficulty levels or alternative side quests etc. Anything that changes the experience and prolongs the Thief experience.
    Would you prefer some random elements/changes each time, or the same game each time?
    It doesn't have to be loot, (except in this thread).

  20. #20
    great idea!

  21. #21
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    mediocre idea!

  22. #22
    I want it, but I dont want total randomness. It should still be a plausible place to put valuables in/at.

  23. #23
    If randomized loot gets implemented, I hate to say it but I hope I have an option available to me so I can choose to NOT randomize loot. I want it kept in the same place every time I play, if I so choose.

    This way, I can have the same loot experience every time and figure out out where the heck I'm going wrong when I'm only able to collect 1435 of 1834 loot. I'll be more inclined to go over the level with a fine-toothed comb if I know the loot is not moving around on me. Otherwise, if the loot is in different places every time, the amount of loot you collect will vary every time you play, even if you visit the exact same places every time -- thereby sometimes giving you false hopes you've found new rooms when you haven't. So if I find 1435 one time, 1320 another and 1634 another... I'll just give up on trying to reach a perfect 1834 since I may not know if I'm finding more or less places each time. (Well, I probably won't give up entirely...but I'll sure feel like I'm spinning wheels since I can't statistically compare my loot stats from one playthrough to the next.)

    Yes, there are benefits to randomizing loot; but there are also benefits, imo, to not randomizing it. I'd prefer not randomizing if we have to choose one or the other.

  24. #24
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    Randomized loot eliminates the loot stat, thus, "Death to the Loot Stat". You meet your objectives, and collect a lot more loot from all the expanded non-mission areas of a larger City around the mission locale, as well as all the usual extra loot that has always been a part of the missions. The mission's loot objective is the only number to worry about, and when it checks off (Objective Completed!), you know all your future spending needs are covered. Explore and collect more and worry no more.



    I was afraid this would happen. The poll is skewed because the explanations aren't sinking in.

  25. #25
    ^-- Sigh.

    I think I understand what you're saying... but I still want consistency. I would want the option for randomness, but I'd also like the option to just keep it at the default of what EM programs into the levels in case I want to have my personal competition to try and get all the loot EM hand-placed throughout the level in tricky spots, etc. If they are mutually exclusive, I still vote for consistency (not random).

    Note: If randomized loot gets implemented, it could/should still tell you at the end how much loot there was in the level. I'd hate to see that go away entirely. It'd still have value to know you found 1403 of the 1553 randomly placed loot. And it wouldn't spoil anything because the total loot amount would be different next time you played that level.

    And if people flat-out want to see the loot stat die, then just hide it on the post-mission summary and have players unveil this stat via a section of the screen that folds open when clicked or something. Kind've like spoiler tags on forums. The person has the choice to view it if they want, or not.

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