View Poll Results: Should Thief have randomized loot?

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I like the idea of having a fresh treasure hunt every time I play Thief.

    42 42.00%
  • No, I like loot that is in the same place, over and over again.

    58 58.00%

Thread: "Randomized Loot"

"Randomized Loot"

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    There wouldn't be a default and it would ALL be hand-placed, just some placements would be Spawn-Markers that random loot would appear at at the mission load, and others would be fixed loot objects placed there according to difficulty level.


    All a loot stat really tells you (regardless of how it's interpreted) is that you did or didn't explore everywhere you could've/should've. The purpose for killing the loot stat is to get away from the high-score mentality of the majority of games, encourage immersing into the role of Garrett and a thief a bit more, and actually be more realistic in a benign way, unlike many suggestions that do the opposite of these. Seeing many comments throughout the fora, numbers, violence, and aesthetics are way up on the list of desired imperatives. I believe those shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the list--important enough, but not high priorities.

    And I'd bet a mod would be made to tally it up anyway, heh, although the way this would be designed, the total loot in the mission wouldn't matter if the player explored everywhere, but most importantly, the total loot would not matter for the next playthrough. It's a new way of thinking. People keep saying they want more realistic and difficult thieving this and that, and this is only a half-step towards realism, yet it's opposed for non-realistic-thief reasons (interesting). Thief has so much anti-establishment. It could use more.








    Next time someone wants to write a thesis on gaming, they could explore why numbers mean so much more than the experience itself? The thesis could be titled "Forget the Game, Just Give Me the Score!"

  2. #27
    I would want the option for randomness
    What I'm most sure of is that EM will definitely not make options like this. They don't have 100 years to develop the game, you know. So it's a plain choice: whether we have it always random, or we have it always static. If the developers make their choice from reading these forums (I don't think they do, but hey), and if they decide to drop random loot because of this discussion, it will be a shame and a huge waste of great opportunity for Thief 4.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    11
    I wanna see da core of thief unchanged, and to this core, da loot belongs if ya asking me.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,701
    being neutral on this issue I haven't voted but I am curious to know who's winning and I can't see for myself unless I vote

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    It's 50/50.

    15+15 among 30.



    I still seriously believe that it's only a misunderstanding and the need for a paradigm nudge that keeps the new idea from winning, even by a single vote.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    I made an updated description of a random loot placement system. In this model, each loot item has, or has not, many different places where it can appear randomly.


  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    That, of course, is the first option that would get a YES vote. More options within one voting choice. So, in essence, is it safe to say you still want a fixed TOTAL loot count that's the same for every playthrough, rather than an unknown number that is always above and beyond everything the player needs?

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    490
    I absolutely take the point about wishing to get 100%, so having the same loot every time is vital.
    Personally, I never minded being some loot short, which is why I opt for change each playthrough.
    Hmm, it's a tough call, I completely see the argument. I do think that the random loot offers a "real" sense of thievery, in that you don't know what will be there till you get there, and thus for me, a greater replay value, but I can understand the frustration for you if the loot keeps moving around.
    I'm loathe to suggest this as you will probably disagree, but would a save at the start of each level be a good enough trade-off for greater playability? I know it's a big ask but I can't see the Dev's making it an option.
    I've said before that this isn't a "deal breaker" for me, I can live with static loot, but I do like the idea of some dynamic element.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Okay, now that's interesting. Other than memorization, is there another frustration element to loot changing places? Is there a frustration element in expecting all the loot without exploring 90% + of a mission? Interesting. This is where adaptation and middle-ground can develop.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    I've never even considered the idea of having a random loot amount. that would be stupid. I always had in mind a system where there is always a fixed amount of loot, but the locations of the items vary.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    So...ONCE AGAIN...I'm on your ignore list. Some of us, actually.

    "That would be stupid". Why? Where've you been, anyway? Hadn't seen you around as much. Got a life or something?


    "Stupid"-- always that little barrier between Us and Them. Information and Emotion. Teaching and trashing.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,540
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    So...ONCE AGAIN...I'm on your ignore list. Some of us, actually.

    "That would be stupid". Why? Where've you been, anyway? Hadn't seen you around as much. Got a life or something?

    "Stupid"-- always that little barrier between Us and Them. Information and Emotion. Teaching and trashing.
    Sorry, I tried to make the "random loot haters" think that there's at least one thing that we agree about. But you really got me there. I really don't have anything against random loot amount because I wouldn't want a "total loot stat" anyway.

    When I was writing that "stupid" -word I had to think of any comebacks I could use to back up my opinion of it being stupid. I couldn't think of any. Just like the haters can't think of any reasons why random loot is "stupid".

  13. #38
    I like where this debate is going.
    Surripio ergo sunt.

  14. #39
    If you remember Thief 2, in Eavesdropping mission, the key you have to take is positioned at one of ~15 preset locations every time you restart the mission (the other ~14 locations have fake keys; I've no idea why LG did that instead of just spawning the proper key at one of the spots). Every time you restart the mission, even if you played it for 10 times already, you don't know precisely where the key is. For me, it is a GREAT touch to the mission.

    And in First City Bank & Trust mission, you have some guards and some security cameras randomly appear or not appear in the mission. Was that a breaker? Of course not, it adds a whole lot of emergency to the gameplay.

    So I simply can't see why some people here don't want random loot placement (I repeat: placement! No one needs random amount of loot!) in Thief 4. It's just beyond my understanding.

    Oh well, if only EM actually read this.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    I'm a askin' for information, explanation. It's totally irrelevant to me that more than half of y'all don't like the idea. I do, you don't, so what? WHY? Why must you have a fixed amount of loot every time? What neurosis does that soothe?


    DEVS: "More than half think it's stupid. We don't know why, for sure, but we can guess from the classes we took. So okay."

  16. #41
    It would be refreshing that a small determined amounth of loot get spawned randomely in missions.
    Surripio ergo sunt.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    How small?

  18. #43
    500 to 2000.
    Surripio ergo sunt.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Heh.

  20. #45
    Originally Posted by jtr7
    I'm a askin' for information, explanation. It's totally irrelevant to me that more than half of y'all don't like the idea. I do, you don't, so what? WHY? Why must you have a fixed amount of loot every time? What neurosis does that soothe?


    DEVS: "More than half think it's stupid. We don't know why, for sure, but we can guess from the classes we took. So okay."

    Ok, basically everybody, who is against random loot is a hater. Great you agreed on that with yourself.

    You HAVE been told various explanations, why (currently) 50% of the people on this vote do not like the idea of randomly placed loot. How much more explanation do you need?

    And btw I would like to hear some explanations from your side too! Why should random loot be such a revolutionary improvement as you claim it is? You guys just keep explaining HOW you imagine random loot to be realized (spawn zones, some static loot etc.), but you don't tell us any good reasons, WHY this will be good for Thief.

    (Replayability and Exploration aren't the 100% Uber-Argument)

    I understand your HOW but I can hardly see any WHY.

    The saving your game at start is no alternative for me, that's not the same, in this regard I also want to quote Mumbjumbo, for this is another good argument AGAINST random loot:

    Originally Posted by Mumbojumbo
    I voted for no. I just overflew the idea and have to say: I just don't like it.

    I mean I loved to share the loot locations with friends back then, the time when Thief was just a fresh new game. I asked my friend, if had found the diamond on the floor of the skyroom, then he asked me if I found the one at the entrance of the Lost City. Man this were times, this game had so much depth and fun.

    this was my frist post, I hope there are many more to follow, hi@all!

    - and hey you are welcome to call me Stephen, if ya want to!
    There is no more sharing the game experience since everybody gets his generic and exchangeable version of the level everytime he starts it.

    Another thing, which came into my mind is the following: With fixed missions (fixed guard patrol, fixed loot) you can play with your environment. You can check out different paths and methods of achieving the goal. If loot (and/or guard) is randomized, the environment starts playing with you. I cannot try out different tactics for myself, I am forced to do it by the game.

    Wanting fixed loot amount etc. has got nothing to do with beeing stupid or ill, its just a preference. Or is it neurosis that some people prefer to wear casual wear instead of a tuxedo? Are they sick? Do you like to wear brown shirts? No? Oh man, are you beeing neurotic again? Some people like certain things better than other things, is that so hard to accept? You tell me and others we aren't allowed to like the high score mentality? The appropriate reply-phrase for that would break the forum rules I'm afraid.

  21. #46
    And where are your arguements? I only see you quoting people in this topic.
    Surripio ergo sunt.

  22. #47
    Originally Posted by FriendlyStranger
    (Replayability and Exploration aren't the 100% Uber-Argument)
    Oh well than. If that's not the 100% argument, I don't know which one will satisfy you. Well. You don't want more replayability and exploration? Hey, Tales of Monkey Island has just been released, go for it! There's NO replayability in this one.

    Originally Posted by FriendlyStranger
    Another thing, which came into my mind is the following: With fixed missions (fixed guard patrol, fixed loot) you can play with your environment. You can check out different paths and methods of achieving the goal. If loot (and/or guard) is randomized, the environment starts playing with you. I cannot try out different tactics for myself, I am forced to do it by the game.
    This is a point, but don't forget that Thief has always been about realism and about unexpected events. The best moments in Thief is when you have to figure out what to do, where to go, and how to avoid that goddamn guard who has just come from around the corner while you were picking the lock. Randomness will significantly improve this effect.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    490
    If the "static" camp don't like the idea of saving at the start of every mission after "seeding", I have another thought, but this may throw a spanner in the works. Randomized equipment thoroughout the level? This to me, is a far shakier option but in the spirit of invention what do others think?
    A 33% chance to get a broadhead,flashbomb,nothing, etc....

  24. #49
    ^ Most sure EM will not bother doing this, since it's far too much work. Ranodmized loot is the biggest we can hope for (I personally almost sure they will not make loot randomized just becuase they won't risk).

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Sure! The key, of course, is that the player has to go out of his/her way to break the game for running out of anything because there will always be a minimum amount for the mission, placed according to the traditional methodology, and the extra added on top, which will really be about playing the larger areas around the missions, but could be saved for the missions themselves. The only part of this that I would personally feel a loss is in the classic sense one could get before a mission (on the first play, at least), where you really had to choose wisely. And in keeping with the spirit, any caches of gear would be fixed.

    For both ideas, the larger areas around the mission could load you up if you don't squander, or you could squander and make the mission more tense. It'd be cool if the surrounding mission-hub (hublet?) offered enough challenge to make it a challenge to hold onto gear.

    This one would be a different set-up, since gear is harder to randomize and keep it seeming correct and "natural".

Page 2 of 5 First First 12345 Last