I'm glad that you understood what I meant, TenebraeAeterna. I haven't been downing your ideas, just that one aspect did I give my honest opinion on. I only ever used the word silly to describe what seeing my own fallen corpse in the hands of another would be to me, but certainly never labeling your whole ideas as such. Shame it was ever taken that way.
As Vampmaster said, the duration of the respawn isn't that long, but this also goes to the odd point brought up about vampires feeding on your human corpse ... it is long enough for that, which has, of course, never been an issue. If it could be implemented even for that long, then I think it would be a great ability for any of the classes to have. Say, during the downtime of the human's death, your vampire has the option to feed, or if you're under fire, pick up the corpse and rush the human firing on you. It would be enough time to use it for that purpose, or to combine it with a charge in general. You get a timer counting down, or a wheel above, like the cool-down wheel for powers, and you get to use that shield for however long it takes for the counter to dissipate. Once it does, your vampire will toss the corpse aside, simultaneously coinciding with the dead player's resurrection.
So, I wouldn't be opposed to any of that. I am not sure the respawn time is enough, but you can do a charge, a rush, and a few attacks in 5-10 seconds, and it might be a bit longer with more people on the servers. We played without any issues like that, with just our tiny group.
I also have said I never had an issue with the Melchahim picking up corpses, and I think given this war, that every map should have strewn about it human and vampire corpses (would be a great visual if vampires were dismembered and staked/impaled). You're fighting a small squad against another, yes, but it's implied that in all maps, this is a human army against the vampires' forces. Especially if it's within vampire territory, having corpses on the ground of similar skins as your team would really sell that this is a larger scale force invading the vamps. It would seem foolish to me for the humans to go into such overwhelmingly dangerous places without a large force, too.
I also don't think the Melchiahim using the corpses to fool others would be a problem. Yes, everyone's miced, but from what I've heard, it's kind of chaotic trying to keep up with all the chatter, and the match moves so quickly that it could be possible to fool the human side, especially if the Melchaihim doesn't attack until the right moment, and perhaps it takes enough damage before the skin tears apart from them and the jig is up. If their "skin" is clad in armor and they carry the same weapons, then you could really open up a really tricky strategy play. The weapons don't have to work, if they wish to keep it melee only for vampires, but it will sell the image of the human, until they get within striking range, or can separate one of the humans from the group. Imagine you as a human follow this other human, because you think he's on your side, and yet he's leading you away from the others, which means you're dead, heh.
So, this would give both the Melchiahim and Zephonim, with some of your ides up there, the appropriate tools to make up for them not being as strong as the other clans, like these are their stealth and subterfuge strategies they've used when fighting the other clans and what they instinctively do here against the humans.
Edit: Additional thought came to be about the pick up the corpse and rush thing... You know, the other great thing you could do with a corpse? Pick it up and toss it, as a weapon That would be a great nod back to one of the best things about crazy Kain in BO2, heh, while giving this move some additional carnage factor
I wasn't under the impression that you were downing any of my ideas...simply that you were presenting the opinion that encountering your own corpse may be a bit silly, which I completely agree with. I don't have access to alpha right now, and I most likely won't obtain it due to my computer consisting of a year old Dell laptop, so I can only speculate based upon what little I know about regarding the game mechanics. I fully expect that many things I consider a possibility for incorporation may need a little tweaking.
With that said, the length of allowed time for feeding upon a corpse is exactly what I was thinking when coming up with this idea. Like you, I don't enjoy the thought of coming across my corpse...but I figured that the respawn time would permit a short duration for the situation that I presented. I can easily see a multitude of situations where a Tyrant would need to use his freshly slain enemy as a meat shield rather than a feed.
As for tossing it towards the enemy, my initial thought was that this would all be a physical act; with the Tyrants having some telekinetic capabilities, however, it makes much more sense for them to use this in combination with their brute strength. So, I think that launching these corpses off through some sort of telekinetic pulse would be awesome...perhaps even the lifting itself being done through telekinesis as a preparation for the toss. This would really tie the Tyrants into their racial ability as we know it.
As for the Melchiahim, I really do adore the idea of them being able to literally flay the flesh off a corpse and wear it as a means to infiltrate the enemy. As it stands, this is a type of infiltration that none of the other clans could even hope to accomplish and fits the Melchiahim exceptionally well. Truth be told, I'm starting to see so many options for the Melchiahim now that we have all been hashing out ideas...
- Wearing the flesh of humans.
- Summoning weaker fledglings from the depths.
- A corpse explosion upon death that deals some damage and then creates a disease cloud that inflicts humans with some sort of disability.
I really think that the Melchiahim should be a completely doable clan, when I initially thought that they would be one of the more difficult clans to flesh out.
Anyway, as for the wearing of human flesh to infiltrate the enemy, so long as it works I'm all for it. If there are an abundance of corpses spread about the field of battle...it's very possible that this could be done in a way that didn't encounter the problem we both see involving a player comes across their own corpse being used by the enemy. If you think that this could still work, that the chaos involved would make it difficult for the enemy to tell who was a Melchiahim imposter until it was too late, I am all for it. It's an awesome ability that makes complete sense from a lore point of view.
With that said...it would work even better in a game mode that was similar to dynasty warriors...where the players of each team are literally fighting with armies of their respective race. The players would be the generals seeking one another out amongst a perpetual sea of lesser humans and vampires clashing against one another...
I can see a game mode like that being downright awesome.
Yeah with so many humans and vampires fighting around you, the Melchiahim ability to steal the skin of an enemy to wear would be very powerful, if however it's still going to be limited to 5 vs 5.
then I offer another take on this idea, much like the human corpses, why not have them resemble the human classes, that why there's ample human skins that look very close to the human classes currently fighting, that why you could still have the skin stealing ability, and they would have to get very close to see through the disguise
or the skin has a limited lifespan, say 30 seconds (to simulate the rotting effect) and the longer the Melcharim where's the skin about that time, the more likely the humans will be able to see through the ruse
What if the Melchiahim had a partial phasing ability. Like allowing human weapons to pass through them or solidifying their hand inside of a humans chest? It wouldn't require a redesign of a level like phasing through parts of the environment would, but it could still allow for other interesting mechanics.
What about leaving arrows sticking out of their bodies that would damage the attacker or maybe bones like the ones sticking out of Melchiah's back. (That last one might just have been concept art, but could still work.) Maybe they could be expelled at a crucial moment for radial damage.
EDIT: I just read the part that Daniel mentioned about the Dumahim also being like an Oni. I can definitely see the resemblance after looking up some pics and would hope that SE/Psyonix can include a few of those traits as well. Maybe a head varient or some heavier armour. (No need for a whole new rig, as I tried to explain to Eric regarding the Razielim.)
Last edited by Vampmaster; 29th Oct 2013 at 15:17.
Ah yes, the phase shifting concept...
Originally Posted by Vampmaster
Forgot all about that one, another great idea for the Melchiahim.
Yeah the phasing could be really cool, with Melchiahim only shortcuts through Iron Gates or bars, through some levels
As I explained, the full body phasing through the environment will require Psyonix to redesign entire levels to allow for it. I don't think they're going to want to do that, which it why I tried to point out other ways the phasing ability could be used.
Originally Posted by lordbane2110
Even *partial* phasing could have uses like I described.
Yes, if seen at all I'd prefer it to be as Vampmaster proposed. Besides the possible technical limitation, I simply wouldn't want the Melchiahim to be that evolved in their abilities. Phasing through realms fully like that is a bit much for this time period, I think (due to how "new" it should feel by the time Raziel wakes up).
I'm perfectly fine with that...
Originally Posted by The_Hylden
A partial phase ability that lets them avoid incoming damage by having it pass right through them would be a very effective trick, and tie them in further with the clan we all know and love. There's a lot that can be done with them, more than I had initially expected.
When it comes to the Melchiahim, I think taking on an ability more similar to the Lieutenant then the Fledglings would be more fitting for gameplay;
Let Melchiahim phase through gates/thin barriers. And leave these kind of barriers throughout the map, linking together shortcuts and bypasses for the Melchiahim to slip around the map quicker than any other Vampire (except maybe the Razielim, but would be harder to detect due to line of sight). This could have a limited usage to prevent abuse or making the class overpowered, or give it a delay, much like Raziel in SR1, it takes a couple seconds to initiate phasing.
As much as I'd like for all the vampire clans abilities to be stricly lore friendly, this ability doesn't fit with the gameplay they are aiming for Nosgoth. The biggest problem with this ability is that in theory it would be used to traverse the map stealthily, but in practice most players would abuse is as a quick escape mechanic.
Originally Posted by IKathaarI
When making a PvP arena game, you have to make sure the action is exciting and fast paced. This ability would encourage too much a defensive strategy for the side that is suppose to be aggressive, the vampires. That being said I would love some variation of phasing in combat for the Melchiahim (a bit biased since I suggested it in another thread, I know).
On a side note, why do we keep talking about Melchiahim on a Turelim thread? Someone should probably start some Official [Insert Clan Name] Discussion Threads so we can keep all the community ideas in one place.
Stop being a party pooper.
Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
I kid, I kid.
That's because someone wanted to give Turel one of Melchiahs abilities. The Melchiahim were the ones who stole the flesh from their victim's corpses.
Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
That's the beauty of balancing, if the ability to phase through gates has a delay (think SR1) then it can't be abused for quick escapes and requires some pre-meditation if it's going to be used.
Originally Posted by TendrilSavant
I'll try, no promises though.
Originally Posted by TenebraeAeterna
Sure, I see your point. But it all depends on the level design and how the human side plays. I've given my two cents on how that class could work from what I know of the game, without any firsthand experience. Once I actually get a chance to play it my views may change, but until then I'm sticking to phasing in combat for how the Melchahim class could work.
Originally Posted by IKathaarI
I'll wait to play myself and see if I can't dig up some real suggestions=P
"Face Palms" dig up, still i suppose if your gonna do a pun you might as well do it here
unfortunately I don't think the puns will ever be buried when it comes to the Melchiahim...
you could say we have unearthed them